Just A quick follow up on some of the comments left on the personal opinion piece this week by RH1
Your comments are in red.
Here’s what you had to say……
THE ECONOMY AND PAST OVER PRODUCTION CAUSED THE LIQUIDATION.
THE LACK OF OTHER MARKET DEMANDS MAKES THIS LIQUIDATION RESULT IN INCREASED NUMBERS OF SLAUGHTER HORSES.
THE LIQUIDATION WAS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH OR WITHOUT THE DEBATE GOING ON NOW DUE TO SENTIENCE NUMBER ONE.
THE SHUTTING DOWN OF U.S. PLANTS HAS MADE THE INEVITABLE HARDER ON THE ANIMALS INVOLVED.
I would like to commend nearly all respondents on their total lack of guilt in any of this …….if none of you is the least bit complicit, where the heck do all these horses come from and why do we have a problem in the first place?
I have nothing to liquidate, as in the 80s, I am simply making your loss my gain…..or as I said in the previous column….someone has to ride them……seems no one wants the ones that don’t ride. I thought I said all this once. Evidently I was misunderstood. I have singled out a few of my favorites to give a personal….wake up and pay attention nod …….
In 1995, 106,200 head of equine were slaughtered at federally inspected plants (USDA, 1996). Horse slaughtering has been decreasing in the U.S. due to public outrage over horse slaughtering and foreign embargoes on the imports of U.S. horse meat. The 1995 figures represent a decrease of more than 50 percent from a total slaughter of approximately 244,000 equine in 1992 (Bauer, 1993).
I thought we covered this in 41 Mustangs and Now That You Mentioned It …… the 80s liquidation, the good economy and the retention of breeding stock in the 90s producing demand other than slaughter to reduce the need…..
The more than 50% decrease in 3 short years did not result in 137,800 horses being left to starve, nor did it result in 137,800 horses in need of euthanasia or 137,800 carcasses in need of disposal, or 137,800 horses getting dumped off into horse rescues, prior to 1993 they were slaughtering over 300,000 horses annually in this country, we had HALF the horse population we do now, about 14 horse slaughterhouses, and very few horse rescues during that time.
Again we covered in the liquidation of the 80s, the increased demand of the 90s, and so on…….please get up to speed here……or review as necessary….
These horses were merely absorbed back into the horse community through the usual route.
True enough, when there was demand for them in the 90s due a good economy and the liquidation/slaughter/demise/gone from the planet not there to buy them now reduction prior to those years (we had half the horse population we do now). Or didn’t I just say that?????
Slaughter buying is a competitive and predatory business, slaughter buyers compete against regular horse buyers.
Very true and if there is no other demand the horse will be sold on the scale. Demand will only allow a butcher horse shipper/feeder to pay so much a pound. If the horse had other value he would be purchased for something else. We have distinct lack of other demand at this point. Pick your reason and stick with it to avoid confusion please…..
Slaughter buyers will answer classified ads and lie to sellers "the horse is going to a children's riding school" or what have you. This isn't a "service". This is profit driven to fill trucks to get them to slaughter.
This is without a doubt the dumbest excuse I can think of to pass anti-slaughter legislation. Hello……do the math……grab a sip of coffee and educate yourself to the market……or don’t believe everything you read/hear/whatever…….Are these the same people demanding we put warning labels on everything including those telling us coffee pots may be hot? I don’t know any shippers running up and down the road chasing horses in the classifieds. They don’t have to they simply go to the sales. Saves fuel and the pain in the butt lying to the public that way.
If this were a service, then all they would need to do is open a business, put up signs, advertise "we buy your unwanted horses" and that's it. People can sell their horses to them if they want.
Obviously written by someone who has never bought and sold horses…..put a line ad in your local newspaper and wait ten minutes, or the new way….put a wanted to buy ad on Craigs List…….Years ago (in the 80s slaughter/liquidation, happy now?) I did have a wanted to buy ad……….it went a long way toward forming the opinion I have of the average horse owner then and since. This time around I know how many horses offered I have no interest in buying. Bail yourselves out. I have always felt if you want to deal loose horses, feed cattle. It’s really not my thing. But please don’t make out like the public is being “forced” to sell horses to slaughter. I simply don’t believe anyone that naïve can still function as a self supporting adult.
The number of horses slaughtered annually is usually a result of how many horse slaughterhouses there are and their working capacity. The more slaughterhouses and the higher the capacity - the more horses are slaughtered. It's the capacity of the slaughterhouses that sets the number of "unwanted" horses.
Now this one is just “I was not paying attention to anything I read” in black and white (or red and white in this case). WE HAVE NO OPERATING PLANTS IN THE US YET WE KILLED MORE HORSES LAST YEAR THAN SINCE 1995. What part of that did you miss????
The number of horses slaughtered or exported for slaughter is entirely based on foreign demand and the number of horses available in the market place for less than butcher price. No matter which side of the debate this should be simple enough for all to understand and agree with. How to address this we can argue, but let’s get on the same page as to the reason it exists and the factors most influencing the number.
To subject our companion animals to this horror story is shameful. And shame on those of you who support horse slaughter.
Three words for you…. local animal shelter>>>>>>> Yes, society has done a bang up job being responsible with pets too…..
The EU and Canada, and soon, Mexico, are taking strong action to protect themselves against known health risk of US horse meat. They are cracking down, finally, on what the AVMA and the AQHA and the AAEP should have admitted all along - US horse meat can kill.
I haven’t researched this enough to write on it either way. The information I have read states Canada will abide the ruling. The Mexican plants slaughtering for export will abide by it. The Mexican plants slaughtering for domestic consumption will not. There’s comforting thought for those who would like to embrace this as the end of the end. The ONLY plants killing horses not quarantined will be the worst in existence. Our horses will simply be exported for quarantine lots not slaughter which kind of makes pending legislation on the criminalization of transport and slaughter unenforceable, no???
When ONE US bovine was found with BSE, over 40 countries closed their borders to US beef, overnight. The EU takes the safety of its food supply very, very seriously.
Are you aware of how much of your beef supply is imported??? Do you think U.S. cattle producers were lobbying for Country of Origin labeling because they had nothing better to do? Those BSE positive bovines were from Canada……Another was born before 1997 when the animal based protein regulations for feeding cattle were changed. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to burden you with details….you were saying…….
The US Farm Bureau ought to revisit its pro-slaughter stance while the explosion of bad news on drugs in US horse meat has hit the press. With the EU slapping a 180 day withdrawal period on druggy US horses - for starters - it won't look good for the pro-slaughter lobby to fight the Federal ban on selling horse meat laced with drugs that will (even in minute amounts) cause miscarriage to unsuspecting women overseas.
I have read a little on the EU regulations. It could be a chance to write some very important legislation for several reasons, drug withdrawal, transparency for the so-called dishonesty in the industry, stolen horse recovery, humane transport, and humane slaughter to name a few. While you are blaming the US for poisoning the world I would like to remind you the EU imports horse meat and has always imported horse meat from many other countries. None of these countries had any restrictions in place prior to the EU regulations which have been in the works for quite some time now.
Breaking news this week: Ernie Paragallo, wealthy race horse breeder busted for 22 counts of animal cruelty for his puppy mill style horse farm on April 8 - that Paragallo - was just charged with 7 more counts of animal cruelty. Where did police find the latest starving, neglected Paragallo horses? At a slaughter feedlot, of course. Perps like Paragallo routinely use slaughter to avoid taking responsibility - and to stay above the law.
As has been pointed out so often in the past, this happened when all the horse plants in this country were open and there are laws to prevent this ….how many ways do we want to bat issues and news stories like this around…..whichever side you choose to be on you can use these types of stories to push for your side …….but I still can’t think of too many feeders starving their cattle. Which is it a feedlot or a puppy mill racehorse farm?
The top spot and largest population of horse owners goes to Recreational Riders - we are the Real Horse Owners I hate to tell ya. Ranchers somehow think they should have some authority on how horses are treated and used in this country.
That would make them the voting majority in the AQHA would it not????(Them being the recreational horse owners) That would make them the producers, owners, and sellers of the majority of slaughter bound horses would it not?????? That would make them the Backyard Breeders would it not???? ……I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “I don’t need anything fancy, I’m only going to trail ride”. Doesn’t matter if it has to do with paying for training or paying for the horse………. I read the American Horse Council survey too but had a little different take on some of the information you have omitted.
R.H1
Thursday, August 13, 2009
Wednesday, August 12, 2009
In Response to Vicki Tobin
Vicki Tobin left a rather lengthy comment and after I said much of it was not fact based she asked what was not factual. I decided since it was so long and she took so much time to type it up I should post it for all rather than just leave it in comments. My Reply to her comment is in green..... Because I like green.
Vicki Tobin said...
Ranch Manager, don’t assume because someone is pro horse, they are from ABR or Fugly. There are thousands and thousands of individuals across the country, Canada and the UK that are working on ending horse slaughter. I cofounded the Equine Welfare Alliance with John Holland – the John Holland that you mentioned in your opinion. Contrary to Rita’s comment, we read the drivel being posted by anti-horse proponents.
Anti-Horse? oh that's real factual Vicki....You have no idea what my or the rest of the Back at the Ranch gal’s equine experiences have been.
You have made several valid points in your opinion. In particular, the cyclical nature of livestock. The USDA and FDA do not classify horses as food animals. Since the country views livestock as food animals, horses do not fall into that category but horse prices do experience cyclical changes.
Actually the horse and all equid are classified as LIVESTOCK at the federal level.
Just a few examples showing that the Federal Gov knows horses are livestock -
http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/naislibrary/documents/plans_reports/ESWG_Recommendations_August_1_2006.pdf
9. Horses are livestock. However, the USDA must recognize the unique characteristics of
the equine industry as it develops the NAIS. Here are the primary and unique characteristics
of horses:
a. Have longest life expectancy of livestock species (20 – 35 years).
b. Are generally more valuable on an individual basis.
c. Are transported more often and for greater distances.
d. Participate in internationally recognized competitions including the Olympics.
e. Require accurate identification to insure the integrity of a multi-billion dollar racing
industry with state regulated pari-mutuel wagering.
f. Are imported and exported on a regularly basis at significant expense.
g. Are at great risk of theft.
h. And, are in many instances already properly identified by the appropriate breed registry
or horse identification services.
_______________________________________________________________________
United States
Department of
Agriculture
Fact Sheet
Livestock Compensation Program
Eligible Livestock
To be eligible under LCP,
ivestock must:
■ be dairy cattle, beef cattle,
buffalo, beefalo, equine,
poultry, elk, reindeer, sheep
goats, swine or deer that;
__________________________
The livestock categories are:
■ adult beef cows or bulls;
■ non-adult beef cattle, 500
pounds or more;
■ adult buffalo or beefalo cows
or bulls;
■ non-adult buffalo or beefalo,
500 pounds or more;
■ adult dairy cows or bulls;
■ non-adult dairy cattle, 500
pounds or more;
■ goats;
■ sheep;
■ swine - less than 45 pounds
■ swine - 45 to 124 pounds
■ swine – 125 to 234 pounds
■ swine – sow – 235 pounds or
more
■ swine – boar – 235 pounds or
more;
■ equine;
■ reindeer
http://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/lcp08.pdf
http://search.usda.gov/search?q=cache:FoPtK3BtrxQJ:http://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/lcp08.pdf+equine%2C+livestock&access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=usda&num=10&proxystylesheet=OC
___________________________________________________________________________________
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t05t08+3237+1++%28equine%20livestock%29%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
section 602 of the Emergency Livestock Feed Assistance Act of 1988 (7 U.S.C. 1471) and insects).
"(7) Agricultural commodity. - The term 'agricultural commodity' means any agricultural commodity, non-processed food, feed, fiber, or livestock (including livestock as defined in section 602 of the Emergency Livestock Feed Assistance Act of 1988 (7 U.S.C. 1471) and insects). ________________________________________________________________________
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t05t08+2941+19++%28livestock%29%20%20AND%20%28%287%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
INCLUSION OF HORSES AND DEER WITHIN DEFINITION OF "LIVESTOCK" Pub. L. 109-97, title VII, Sec. 784(a), Nov. 10, 2005, 119 Stat. 2162, provided that: "In carrying out a livestock assistance, compensation, or feed program, the Secretary of Agriculture shall include horses and deer within the definition of 'livestock' covered by the program."
________________________________________________________________________
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t05t08+2941+1++%28horse%29%20%20AND%20%28%287%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
(2) The term "livestock" means cattle, elk, reindeer, bison, horses, deer, sheep, goats, swine, poultry (including egg- producing poultry), fish used for food, and other animals designated by the Secretary
________________________________________________________________
What you call horses is of no relevance.
Sorry but it is relevant. In my opinion (see how I point out when it’s an opinion) and in the opinions of many who are pro-horse it is best for the horse itself to be classified as livestock. They have more legal protections in most States than pets do.
The fact is that they are bred and raised to perform other functions. Like dogs, they are sport, service, work, therapy, performance and companion animals. They herd livestock. They are used in law enforcement and therapy. They have been named athlete of the year.
You are correct. However, it is not your place to force your wishes for your horses down the throats of an entire nation. There are some horses who not only can not perform any of the things you mention but who can’t even be considered remotely safe to be around humans. Yes I know those aren’t the only ones going to slaughter, I’m not naive when it comes to how things work.
Do you know any food animals that carry a $20M dollar life insurance policy?
Not personally and I don’t know the exact amount but I do know that many food animals are insured. Also I do know that Bulls (who produce food animals) are often time insured for pretty huge amounts of money. One can verify the livestock insurance with a google search and get a lot of information.
The $41B horse industry was made from live horses, not from their slaughter.
Yup, and there was a base price, a floor, to the market. Still is a floor price (scale price) since Mexico and Canada are still slaughtering American horses it’s just much lower now.
We do not condemn nor want to change the cultures of countries that consume horse meat. They are free to eat whatever they choose but if they choose horse meat, they can kill their own horses.
But you are trying to dictate end of life decisions for all horse owners and you are trying to remove classes of equine, you are also trying to pull the floor out of the horse market.
There is no other business that has ever operated on US soil that shipped their entire product overseas. We slaughter no other animal that we do not consume.
So?
The horses going to slaughter are not low end. The USDA and Grandin have both reported that over 94% are of an average age of 7, fit, sound and usable.
I do not believe for one minute they said usable. Do you have a link or information where that came from? A horse can be fit and sound physically and still have irreparable mental damage or a health problem that deems them not “usable” but at a glance or unless you have personal knowledge of the horse these issues would not be known.
They may be unusable to the breeders that have breed in excess or the unlucky foals that happened to be the wrong color.
You really don’t have a lot of horse experience do you?
Rescued horses have gone on to be named USEF horse of the year and have lead productive lives in performing, riding horses, therapy and a host of other careers.
True but what does that have to do with this? We all know that some nice, well conformed, good minded horses have had to be rescued from farms and stables due to neglect and or abuse. The average crooked legged, ill conformed not too smart horse from the kill pen is not likely to go on and do all these great things.
Horses are living beings, not tin cans with salvage value. I don’t buy the need for culling.
There has always been a need for culling. Some horses would live a life of constant misery if left on this earth with severe conformational defects, brain defects, and certain diseases. I hate to tell you this but even “humane euthanasia” can be considered “culling the herd” in some instances. Way back in the day a foal born with severe defects was just hit in the head. It was not pawned off on some bleeding heart to make a pet of and so it could suffer through a miserable life.
Don’t produce more horses than there is a demand for. It is supply and demand 101.
Again not much equine experience is showing in this statement. Supply and Demand is anything but simple in the horse industry.
The year after the plants shut down, the AQHA registered 140,000 foals (Equus Magazine Jan ’09 issue). Do you call that cutting back?
I have to admit I have not checked the new numbers, am doing that research now, but I will say if last years number was 200,000 then yes it would be cutting back. I’ll have to get back to that in a couple days, after I find all the facts in my research.
It is no great mystery why Quarter Horses are the leading breed going to slaughter.
Never was a great mystery to me or anyone else who has a working knowledge of the horse industry. there are two reasons (well more but these two are verifiable) (1) Any stock type horse, could be grade, could be APHA, Could be ApHc, etc.. That goes into the plant is called a “quarter horse” in the records. (2) The Quarter horse is the most popular breed in the country so there are more of them. Simple ratio concept.
They continue to produce more horses, year after year, in excess of the demand.Slaughter perpetuates the irresponsible breeding and hides abuse and neglect.
Your opinion right?
Ending slaughter will not totally eliminate it but if the breeders have an ounce of intelligence, they’ll make adjustments.
As I said the “real ones” are adjusting.
Abuse and neglect were just as prevalent when the plants were open. The largest horse seizure in US history took place in 2005 when all three plants were operating.
That may be true but NOW we can add rescues neglecting the horses AND abandoned and turned loose horses to that number. You anti folks can no longer claim that to be a lie or sensationalism. I have PERSONALLY been involved with cases of abandonment and horses that were turned loose.
As long as man owns animals, there will be abuse and neglect. There will be irresponsible owners
I agree and I think we can safely call that a fact
but to continue to perpetuate it with slaughter, is not the answer. Slaughter is a symptom, not a cure.
And that is another opinion. My opinion on that differs from yours.
R.M
Vicki Tobin said...
Ranch Manager, don’t assume because someone is pro horse, they are from ABR or Fugly. There are thousands and thousands of individuals across the country, Canada and the UK that are working on ending horse slaughter. I cofounded the Equine Welfare Alliance with John Holland – the John Holland that you mentioned in your opinion. Contrary to Rita’s comment, we read the drivel being posted by anti-horse proponents.
Anti-Horse? oh that's real factual Vicki....You have no idea what my or the rest of the Back at the Ranch gal’s equine experiences have been.
You have made several valid points in your opinion. In particular, the cyclical nature of livestock. The USDA and FDA do not classify horses as food animals. Since the country views livestock as food animals, horses do not fall into that category but horse prices do experience cyclical changes.
Actually the horse and all equid are classified as LIVESTOCK at the federal level.
Just a few examples showing that the Federal Gov knows horses are livestock -
http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/naislibrary/documents/plans_reports/ESWG_Recommendations_August_1_2006.pdf
9. Horses are livestock. However, the USDA must recognize the unique characteristics of
the equine industry as it develops the NAIS. Here are the primary and unique characteristics
of horses:
a. Have longest life expectancy of livestock species (20 – 35 years).
b. Are generally more valuable on an individual basis.
c. Are transported more often and for greater distances.
d. Participate in internationally recognized competitions including the Olympics.
e. Require accurate identification to insure the integrity of a multi-billion dollar racing
industry with state regulated pari-mutuel wagering.
f. Are imported and exported on a regularly basis at significant expense.
g. Are at great risk of theft.
h. And, are in many instances already properly identified by the appropriate breed registry
or horse identification services.
_______________________________________________________________________
United States
Department of
Agriculture
Fact Sheet
Livestock Compensation Program
Eligible Livestock
To be eligible under LCP,
ivestock must:
■ be dairy cattle, beef cattle,
buffalo, beefalo, equine,
poultry, elk, reindeer, sheep
goats, swine or deer that;
__________________________
The livestock categories are:
■ adult beef cows or bulls;
■ non-adult beef cattle, 500
pounds or more;
■ adult buffalo or beefalo cows
or bulls;
■ non-adult buffalo or beefalo,
500 pounds or more;
■ adult dairy cows or bulls;
■ non-adult dairy cattle, 500
pounds or more;
■ goats;
■ sheep;
■ swine - less than 45 pounds
■ swine - 45 to 124 pounds
■ swine – 125 to 234 pounds
■ swine – sow – 235 pounds or
more
■ swine – boar – 235 pounds or
more;
■ equine;
■ reindeer
http://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/lcp08.pdf
http://search.usda.gov/search?q=cache:FoPtK3BtrxQJ:http://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/lcp08.pdf+equine%2C+livestock&access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=usda&num=10&proxystylesheet=OC
___________________________________________________________________________________
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t05t08+3237+1++%28equine%20livestock%29%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
section 602 of the Emergency Livestock Feed Assistance Act of 1988 (7 U.S.C. 1471) and insects).
"(7) Agricultural commodity. - The term 'agricultural commodity' means any agricultural commodity, non-processed food, feed, fiber, or livestock (including livestock as defined in section 602 of the Emergency Livestock Feed Assistance Act of 1988 (7 U.S.C. 1471) and insects). ________________________________________________________________________
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t05t08+2941+19++%28livestock%29%20%20AND%20%28%287%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
INCLUSION OF HORSES AND DEER WITHIN DEFINITION OF "LIVESTOCK" Pub. L. 109-97, title VII, Sec. 784(a), Nov. 10, 2005, 119 Stat. 2162, provided that: "In carrying out a livestock assistance, compensation, or feed program, the Secretary of Agriculture shall include horses and deer within the definition of 'livestock' covered by the program."
________________________________________________________________________
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t05t08+2941+1++%28horse%29%20%20AND%20%28%287%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
(2) The term "livestock" means cattle, elk, reindeer, bison, horses, deer, sheep, goats, swine, poultry (including egg- producing poultry), fish used for food, and other animals designated by the Secretary
________________________________________________________________
What you call horses is of no relevance.
Sorry but it is relevant. In my opinion (see how I point out when it’s an opinion) and in the opinions of many who are pro-horse it is best for the horse itself to be classified as livestock. They have more legal protections in most States than pets do.
The fact is that they are bred and raised to perform other functions. Like dogs, they are sport, service, work, therapy, performance and companion animals. They herd livestock. They are used in law enforcement and therapy. They have been named athlete of the year.
You are correct. However, it is not your place to force your wishes for your horses down the throats of an entire nation. There are some horses who not only can not perform any of the things you mention but who can’t even be considered remotely safe to be around humans. Yes I know those aren’t the only ones going to slaughter, I’m not naive when it comes to how things work.
Do you know any food animals that carry a $20M dollar life insurance policy?
Not personally and I don’t know the exact amount but I do know that many food animals are insured. Also I do know that Bulls (who produce food animals) are often time insured for pretty huge amounts of money. One can verify the livestock insurance with a google search and get a lot of information.
The $41B horse industry was made from live horses, not from their slaughter.
Yup, and there was a base price, a floor, to the market. Still is a floor price (scale price) since Mexico and Canada are still slaughtering American horses it’s just much lower now.
We do not condemn nor want to change the cultures of countries that consume horse meat. They are free to eat whatever they choose but if they choose horse meat, they can kill their own horses.
But you are trying to dictate end of life decisions for all horse owners and you are trying to remove classes of equine, you are also trying to pull the floor out of the horse market.
There is no other business that has ever operated on US soil that shipped their entire product overseas. We slaughter no other animal that we do not consume.
So?
The horses going to slaughter are not low end. The USDA and Grandin have both reported that over 94% are of an average age of 7, fit, sound and usable.
I do not believe for one minute they said usable. Do you have a link or information where that came from? A horse can be fit and sound physically and still have irreparable mental damage or a health problem that deems them not “usable” but at a glance or unless you have personal knowledge of the horse these issues would not be known.
They may be unusable to the breeders that have breed in excess or the unlucky foals that happened to be the wrong color.
You really don’t have a lot of horse experience do you?
Rescued horses have gone on to be named USEF horse of the year and have lead productive lives in performing, riding horses, therapy and a host of other careers.
True but what does that have to do with this? We all know that some nice, well conformed, good minded horses have had to be rescued from farms and stables due to neglect and or abuse. The average crooked legged, ill conformed not too smart horse from the kill pen is not likely to go on and do all these great things.
Horses are living beings, not tin cans with salvage value. I don’t buy the need for culling.
There has always been a need for culling. Some horses would live a life of constant misery if left on this earth with severe conformational defects, brain defects, and certain diseases. I hate to tell you this but even “humane euthanasia” can be considered “culling the herd” in some instances. Way back in the day a foal born with severe defects was just hit in the head. It was not pawned off on some bleeding heart to make a pet of and so it could suffer through a miserable life.
Don’t produce more horses than there is a demand for. It is supply and demand 101.
Again not much equine experience is showing in this statement. Supply and Demand is anything but simple in the horse industry.
The year after the plants shut down, the AQHA registered 140,000 foals (Equus Magazine Jan ’09 issue). Do you call that cutting back?
I have to admit I have not checked the new numbers, am doing that research now, but I will say if last years number was 200,000 then yes it would be cutting back. I’ll have to get back to that in a couple days, after I find all the facts in my research.
It is no great mystery why Quarter Horses are the leading breed going to slaughter.
Never was a great mystery to me or anyone else who has a working knowledge of the horse industry. there are two reasons (well more but these two are verifiable) (1) Any stock type horse, could be grade, could be APHA, Could be ApHc, etc.. That goes into the plant is called a “quarter horse” in the records. (2) The Quarter horse is the most popular breed in the country so there are more of them. Simple ratio concept.
They continue to produce more horses, year after year, in excess of the demand.Slaughter perpetuates the irresponsible breeding and hides abuse and neglect.
Your opinion right?
Ending slaughter will not totally eliminate it but if the breeders have an ounce of intelligence, they’ll make adjustments.
As I said the “real ones” are adjusting.
Abuse and neglect were just as prevalent when the plants were open. The largest horse seizure in US history took place in 2005 when all three plants were operating.
That may be true but NOW we can add rescues neglecting the horses AND abandoned and turned loose horses to that number. You anti folks can no longer claim that to be a lie or sensationalism. I have PERSONALLY been involved with cases of abandonment and horses that were turned loose.
As long as man owns animals, there will be abuse and neglect. There will be irresponsible owners
I agree and I think we can safely call that a fact
but to continue to perpetuate it with slaughter, is not the answer. Slaughter is a symptom, not a cure.
And that is another opinion. My opinion on that differs from yours.
R.M
Tuesday, August 11, 2009
Personal Opinion -
- here’s what I think……..
We have all heard the horror stories of the disastrous horse market. The anti-slaughter groups would have us blame this free fall on the economy, overproduction, irresponsible owners, and management, anything other than their efforts. Here is my personal take on the subject, based on many years of buying and selling mid-priced horses and participation in other forms of livestock production. “Mid-priced” is defined as horses the average person can afford to buy to show, ranch on, trail ride on, or resell to another more finished market or demographic.
According to the anti-slaughter/anti-culling side of this complex market problem, the economy and irresponsible breeders/owners are responsible for the unwanted horse problem. Near as I can tell, “irresponsible” is anyone who disagrees with them. The economy is a big part of the problem, horse market being only one component.
The production of all livestock is cyclical in nature. There are times of good prices. Breeding stock is retained to increase production, theoretically producing more profit. More breeding stock being retained means more animals produced in the next generation. Unless demand increases at a faster pace than production, prices will fall. When prices fall below the price of production and remain there for any length of time, liquidation begins. The liquidation adjusts the supply to the demand, prices come up, and the cycle resumes.
Horses have more variables in the market place than other species, but they are still subject to the same cycles. Their upper-end value and demand are controlled by economic status, popular trend, their talent, training, disposition, and even color. One might say the sky’s the limit on the up side. One trader was fond of saying, “good steer’s only worth so much a pound, a good colt’s worth whatever you make him.” He’s been dead for years, but that saying is still true. The low-end or “salvage” value always has been, and still is, the butcher horse price.
A common argument to refute the effect of scale price, or lack of it, on the horse market is how slaughter numbers have been dropping for many years, with horse prices being unaffected until recently. Therefore, the economy is to blame, not the lack of slaughter base price. Yes and no. Despite the lower slaughter numbers, the price per pound still remained rather steady, due in part to those lower numbers. The lower numbers killed in the 90’s were mostly due to horses being bid above the scale by a demand other than “lunch.” Demand has lessened, the expense of shipping horses has increased, and breeders are scaling back, as they would have either way.
Side note to the anti-slaughter side here: I’m going to strike you a deal. I will refer to the slaughter horses as loose horses, weigh horses, or killers from here on out. My side is animal agriculture, livestock production, professional horsemen, traders, and pro-horse business. You are the rescue league, the new humane horse/companion culture. The horses you are defending are low-end horses. I hate the term anti-slaughter and pro-slaughter. They are both over simplifications of the two opposing sides of a complex issue.
The new “humane” horse culture has actually sent more horses to kill than they realize. The horse industry, for several reasons, was entering its reduction cycle. We examined how that cycle works in a previous column about the 80’s, compared to now (41 Mustangs). No Wayne Pacelle’s, Fugly’s, John Holland, or Steve Hindi’s had to tell people to “stop pumping out foals.” Uhm….the horse industry figured it out on their own. The pending legislation, internet “facts,” heartstring manipulation, bad press, a little Disney, and a whole lot of Guilt 101 set out to change horse marketing. I read a recent commentary, stating the U.S. has killed more horses in 2008 than any time since 1995. The cycle is running its course--in spite of all the hand wringing and wailing. The cold hard, marketing facts and statistics lead me to believe all the hysteria have only made the inevitable harder on the animals involved. The cycle will continue to run its course.
Compromising the culling system, necessary to deal with the inevitable liquidation, has had some other unintended consequences. Could that be called collateral damage? The horses who were “saved” (“saved” in very loose fashion) have remained in a market place which had no other use for them prior to their “rescue.” One of them has stolen the place of another horse, who on the open market may or may not have been more saleable or be useable. There are only so many horsemen of ANY type available to care for any horse.
The lower floor on the market, shaming of people to give away horses rather than “subject them to the auction,” the unsupervised adoption process from the federal government for backyard “rescues” and other factors, has made it possible for many, who shouldn’t be allowed to own anything other a pet rock, to enter the horse breeding business. They have given the humane horse culture a splashy, new fun term, BYB (back yard breeder).
Joe BYB reads about the high selling yearling at XYXZ production sale bringing $12,0000, or sees the top horse at XXXX Saturday Sale bring $3,500. Joe’s prospect is the same color, has some of the same breeding and he is FREE! This explains how we enter end of the production cycle. Some people maintain Joe will be weeded out if the financial “reward” of slaughter is removed. Joe will remain, much as puppy mills have flourished. People who continue to dump cats in my driveway remain, despite the absence of a financial floor on the companion animal market. As an “added bonus,” the head case animal hoarders have another “pet” to torture, while doing them a “favor” by keeping them alive. Horse hoarding abuse cases are becoming common.
I don’t see the market place, or anything else, weeding these people out. In the future, euthanasia stations will serve the same purpose as animal shelters do now. This is another consequence, yet unaddressed, in preparing for the passage of any pending legislation. These stations will be absolutely necessary the week following any passage of export and criminalization laws. We must be prepared for them to become as controversial and funding needy as the companion animal shelters now. The line between “valuable” and “worthless” will become as blurry and as quickly interchangeable for horses as it presently is for purebred dogs and cats.
Unchanging factors include the enormous investments in time, skill, equipment, and facilities involved in producing a safe, useful horse. These are not cheap. As the lack of competent trainers becomes more pronounced, the concept of value-added agriculture, as it has applied to horses for generations, will become more apparent. Someone still needs to ride the horses. The horse as a pet or pasture buddy still requires fencing, facilities, and basic ground handling training for safe health maintenance care. Think it’s a bitch to treat a pissed off Labrador? Try it with a 1,400 pound mature draft-cross rescue with no manners and a bad attitude. Whether it’s a rescue or training facility, horses are still horses. No matter how much the companion animal culture humanizes them, horses will still think, perceive their world, and react as horses. Environment will not alter DNA. This will eliminate many a “rescuer.”
If the pending legislation is passed in its intended form, the future of the horse industry cannot be predicted. The industry will not see the full effects for another six to ten years. We are only now dealing with the over-production stage of the cycle, which began during the high tide of the 90’s, caused in part by the liquidation of the 80’s. No one is reinventing the wheel- though many would like to think so.
There was a horse industry before the slaughter for human consumption debate and it will be here after the dust settles. Disciplines and training will remain. A good horse will always be worth something. More than ever before, those with the skill and the right horses will be in the driver’s seat. Without doubt there will be reductions and changes. They were coming anyway. There’s an old trader saying for that, too, “He’s worth whatever you have guts enough to ask and what somebody will pay for him.”
written by R.H.1
We have all heard the horror stories of the disastrous horse market. The anti-slaughter groups would have us blame this free fall on the economy, overproduction, irresponsible owners, and management, anything other than their efforts. Here is my personal take on the subject, based on many years of buying and selling mid-priced horses and participation in other forms of livestock production. “Mid-priced” is defined as horses the average person can afford to buy to show, ranch on, trail ride on, or resell to another more finished market or demographic.
According to the anti-slaughter/anti-culling side of this complex market problem, the economy and irresponsible breeders/owners are responsible for the unwanted horse problem. Near as I can tell, “irresponsible” is anyone who disagrees with them. The economy is a big part of the problem, horse market being only one component.
The production of all livestock is cyclical in nature. There are times of good prices. Breeding stock is retained to increase production, theoretically producing more profit. More breeding stock being retained means more animals produced in the next generation. Unless demand increases at a faster pace than production, prices will fall. When prices fall below the price of production and remain there for any length of time, liquidation begins. The liquidation adjusts the supply to the demand, prices come up, and the cycle resumes.
Horses have more variables in the market place than other species, but they are still subject to the same cycles. Their upper-end value and demand are controlled by economic status, popular trend, their talent, training, disposition, and even color. One might say the sky’s the limit on the up side. One trader was fond of saying, “good steer’s only worth so much a pound, a good colt’s worth whatever you make him.” He’s been dead for years, but that saying is still true. The low-end or “salvage” value always has been, and still is, the butcher horse price.
A common argument to refute the effect of scale price, or lack of it, on the horse market is how slaughter numbers have been dropping for many years, with horse prices being unaffected until recently. Therefore, the economy is to blame, not the lack of slaughter base price. Yes and no. Despite the lower slaughter numbers, the price per pound still remained rather steady, due in part to those lower numbers. The lower numbers killed in the 90’s were mostly due to horses being bid above the scale by a demand other than “lunch.” Demand has lessened, the expense of shipping horses has increased, and breeders are scaling back, as they would have either way.
Side note to the anti-slaughter side here: I’m going to strike you a deal. I will refer to the slaughter horses as loose horses, weigh horses, or killers from here on out. My side is animal agriculture, livestock production, professional horsemen, traders, and pro-horse business. You are the rescue league, the new humane horse/companion culture. The horses you are defending are low-end horses. I hate the term anti-slaughter and pro-slaughter. They are both over simplifications of the two opposing sides of a complex issue.
The new “humane” horse culture has actually sent more horses to kill than they realize. The horse industry, for several reasons, was entering its reduction cycle. We examined how that cycle works in a previous column about the 80’s, compared to now (41 Mustangs). No Wayne Pacelle’s, Fugly’s, John Holland, or Steve Hindi’s had to tell people to “stop pumping out foals.” Uhm….the horse industry figured it out on their own. The pending legislation, internet “facts,” heartstring manipulation, bad press, a little Disney, and a whole lot of Guilt 101 set out to change horse marketing. I read a recent commentary, stating the U.S. has killed more horses in 2008 than any time since 1995. The cycle is running its course--in spite of all the hand wringing and wailing. The cold hard, marketing facts and statistics lead me to believe all the hysteria have only made the inevitable harder on the animals involved. The cycle will continue to run its course.
Compromising the culling system, necessary to deal with the inevitable liquidation, has had some other unintended consequences. Could that be called collateral damage? The horses who were “saved” (“saved” in very loose fashion) have remained in a market place which had no other use for them prior to their “rescue.” One of them has stolen the place of another horse, who on the open market may or may not have been more saleable or be useable. There are only so many horsemen of ANY type available to care for any horse.
The lower floor on the market, shaming of people to give away horses rather than “subject them to the auction,” the unsupervised adoption process from the federal government for backyard “rescues” and other factors, has made it possible for many, who shouldn’t be allowed to own anything other a pet rock, to enter the horse breeding business. They have given the humane horse culture a splashy, new fun term, BYB (back yard breeder).
Joe BYB reads about the high selling yearling at XYXZ production sale bringing $12,0000, or sees the top horse at XXXX Saturday Sale bring $3,500. Joe’s prospect is the same color, has some of the same breeding and he is FREE! This explains how we enter end of the production cycle. Some people maintain Joe will be weeded out if the financial “reward” of slaughter is removed. Joe will remain, much as puppy mills have flourished. People who continue to dump cats in my driveway remain, despite the absence of a financial floor on the companion animal market. As an “added bonus,” the head case animal hoarders have another “pet” to torture, while doing them a “favor” by keeping them alive. Horse hoarding abuse cases are becoming common.
I don’t see the market place, or anything else, weeding these people out. In the future, euthanasia stations will serve the same purpose as animal shelters do now. This is another consequence, yet unaddressed, in preparing for the passage of any pending legislation. These stations will be absolutely necessary the week following any passage of export and criminalization laws. We must be prepared for them to become as controversial and funding needy as the companion animal shelters now. The line between “valuable” and “worthless” will become as blurry and as quickly interchangeable for horses as it presently is for purebred dogs and cats.
Unchanging factors include the enormous investments in time, skill, equipment, and facilities involved in producing a safe, useful horse. These are not cheap. As the lack of competent trainers becomes more pronounced, the concept of value-added agriculture, as it has applied to horses for generations, will become more apparent. Someone still needs to ride the horses. The horse as a pet or pasture buddy still requires fencing, facilities, and basic ground handling training for safe health maintenance care. Think it’s a bitch to treat a pissed off Labrador? Try it with a 1,400 pound mature draft-cross rescue with no manners and a bad attitude. Whether it’s a rescue or training facility, horses are still horses. No matter how much the companion animal culture humanizes them, horses will still think, perceive their world, and react as horses. Environment will not alter DNA. This will eliminate many a “rescuer.”
If the pending legislation is passed in its intended form, the future of the horse industry cannot be predicted. The industry will not see the full effects for another six to ten years. We are only now dealing with the over-production stage of the cycle, which began during the high tide of the 90’s, caused in part by the liquidation of the 80’s. No one is reinventing the wheel- though many would like to think so.
There was a horse industry before the slaughter for human consumption debate and it will be here after the dust settles. Disciplines and training will remain. A good horse will always be worth something. More than ever before, those with the skill and the right horses will be in the driver’s seat. Without doubt there will be reductions and changes. They were coming anyway. There’s an old trader saying for that, too, “He’s worth whatever you have guts enough to ask and what somebody will pay for him.”
written by R.H.1
Monday, August 10, 2009
I Love Honesty! especially when it’s mixed with some humor.
This is an add that was copied and posted on one of the horse forum message boards I read. I though it was funny enough to put in the blog AND was a good follow up to some of the anti rodeo comments we are getting.
For Sale-1000 lb breakfast sausage(10 yr old bay mare) - $300 (southeast Nebraska)
Date: 2009-08-05, 10:15PM CDTReply to----------removed-------
I have for sale a nice bay mare. She is 10 years old and is half Arab and half paint. She is easy to catch and gentle to work with. Lifts all feet for cleaning. Very pretty perky ears. Tame and leads and loads easily. No biting or nipping. Teeth in good shape. Recently wormed. Bucks like a rodeo bronc. Nice disposition. Good with other horses. Bucked off my daughter and will be turned into sausage if she is not sold. I will not sell her to someone who is not an experienced horse person. Would consider selling her to someone with a bad mother in law. She does not just give a couple bunny hops, she gets good height and leg extension. If you know a good rodeo contractor, let me know. Would make a nice pasture pet like a lot of other horses are, just not in my pasture. She might make someone a nice brood mare. Very gentle to handle. Just bucks like a banshee. Get some PETA buddies together and save this horse from the sausage grinder!
· Location: southeast Nebraska
· it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
So it would seem this little horse LIKES to buck. I own one who loves to buck so I know where this seller is coming from. If this mare is anything like mine there is no warning before it starts, no anger or malice either. After the rider comes off he comes right over to check you out on the ground often nuzzling you. I wish I had found a rough stock buyer for mine, he would have a more productive life now and would be off my feed bill. I think he would be happier too to have a job he is good at. Mine was/is lucky enough to have a couple jobs here so has not had to become sausage....yet.... lol.
So how about it.... anyone know any rough stock buyers who might be interested in this mare? I hate to see a horse who may have a talent and future job become a sandwich in EU lets save that job for those who really need it.
R.M
For Sale-1000 lb breakfast sausage(10 yr old bay mare) - $300 (southeast Nebraska)
Date: 2009-08-05, 10:15PM CDTReply to----------removed-------
I have for sale a nice bay mare. She is 10 years old and is half Arab and half paint. She is easy to catch and gentle to work with. Lifts all feet for cleaning. Very pretty perky ears. Tame and leads and loads easily. No biting or nipping. Teeth in good shape. Recently wormed. Bucks like a rodeo bronc. Nice disposition. Good with other horses. Bucked off my daughter and will be turned into sausage if she is not sold. I will not sell her to someone who is not an experienced horse person. Would consider selling her to someone with a bad mother in law. She does not just give a couple bunny hops, she gets good height and leg extension. If you know a good rodeo contractor, let me know. Would make a nice pasture pet like a lot of other horses are, just not in my pasture. She might make someone a nice brood mare. Very gentle to handle. Just bucks like a banshee. Get some PETA buddies together and save this horse from the sausage grinder!
· Location: southeast Nebraska
· it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
So it would seem this little horse LIKES to buck. I own one who loves to buck so I know where this seller is coming from. If this mare is anything like mine there is no warning before it starts, no anger or malice either. After the rider comes off he comes right over to check you out on the ground often nuzzling you. I wish I had found a rough stock buyer for mine, he would have a more productive life now and would be off my feed bill. I think he would be happier too to have a job he is good at. Mine was/is lucky enough to have a couple jobs here so has not had to become sausage....yet.... lol.
So how about it.... anyone know any rough stock buyers who might be interested in this mare? I hate to see a horse who may have a talent and future job become a sandwich in EU lets save that job for those who really need it.
R.M
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