“The greatest deterrent
to freedom are men and women of zeal, well-meaning, but
without knowledge or understanding.”
~Justice Louis Brandeis~

"People are so quick to defend their own agendas, but they so often fail to realize we must protect the rights of all if we are to continue to have any rights of our own."

Ranch meaning, in general, any real world dwelling probably not involving full care board. Kind of a rural voice of real horse owners, trainers, traders, auction owners, rodeo contractors, etc.. all of us who have taken a verbal beating and called greedy ass hats. Back at the Ranch contributors, moderators, subjects, and so on, are pro-horse, pro-owner, and pro-slaughter.
Back at the Ranch was formed by a group of like minded horse / livestock owners. It is a place for us to try to educate, a place to vent our frustrations with the current equine industry, a place to share humor and snark, and in general try to open the eyes of the public who seem to be anti-agriculture.We do have a section for comments of course, and if you would like to email us you can do so directly or through the contact us form. We like to hear from our readers. I hope you enjoy reading our blog as much as I enjoy managing it.
Ranch Manager

Tuesday, August 11, 2009

Personal Opinion -

- here’s what I think……..
We have all heard the horror stories of the disastrous horse market. The anti-slaughter groups would have us blame this free fall on the economy, overproduction, irresponsible owners, and management, anything other than their efforts. Here is my personal take on the subject, based on many years of buying and selling mid-priced horses and participation in other forms of livestock production. “Mid-priced” is defined as horses the average person can afford to buy to show, ranch on, trail ride on, or resell to another more finished market or demographic.
According to the anti-slaughter/anti-culling side of this complex market problem, the economy and irresponsible breeders/owners are responsible for the unwanted horse problem. Near as I can tell, “irresponsible” is anyone who disagrees with them. The economy is a big part of the problem, horse market being only one component.
The production of all livestock is cyclical in nature. There are times of good prices. Breeding stock is retained to increase production, theoretically producing more profit. More breeding stock being retained means more animals produced in the next generation. Unless demand increases at a faster pace than production, prices will fall. When prices fall below the price of production and remain there for any length of time, liquidation begins. The liquidation adjusts the supply to the demand, prices come up, and the cycle resumes.
Horses have more variables in the market place than other species, but they are still subject to the same cycles. Their upper-end value and demand are controlled by economic status, popular trend, their talent, training, disposition, and even color. One might say the sky’s the limit on the up side. One trader was fond of saying, “good steer’s only worth so much a pound, a good colt’s worth whatever you make him.” He’s been dead for years, but that saying is still true. The low-end or “salvage” value always has been, and still is, the butcher horse price.
A common argument to refute the effect of scale price, or lack of it, on the horse market is how slaughter numbers have been dropping for many years, with horse prices being unaffected until recently. Therefore, the economy is to blame, not the lack of slaughter base price. Yes and no. Despite the lower slaughter numbers, the price per pound still remained rather steady, due in part to those lower numbers. The lower numbers killed in the 90’s were mostly due to horses being bid above the scale by a demand other than “lunch.” Demand has lessened, the expense of shipping horses has increased, and breeders are scaling back, as they would have either way.
Side note to the anti-slaughter side here: I’m going to strike you a deal. I will refer to the slaughter horses as loose horses, weigh horses, or killers from here on out. My side is animal agriculture, livestock production, professional horsemen, traders, and pro-horse business. You are the rescue league, the new humane horse/companion culture. The horses you are defending are low-end horses. I hate the term anti-slaughter and pro-slaughter. They are both over simplifications of the two opposing sides of a complex issue.
The new “humane” horse culture has actually sent more horses to kill than they realize. The horse industry, for several reasons, was entering its reduction cycle. We examined how that cycle works in a previous column about the 80’s, compared to now (41 Mustangs). No Wayne Pacelle’s, Fugly’s, John Holland, or Steve Hindi’s had to tell people to “stop pumping out foals.” Uhm….the horse industry figured it out on their own. The pending legislation, internet “facts,” heartstring manipulation, bad press, a little Disney, and a whole lot of Guilt 101 set out to change horse marketing. I read a recent commentary, stating the U.S. has killed more horses in 2008 than any time since 1995. The cycle is running its course--in spite of all the hand wringing and wailing. The cold hard, marketing facts and statistics lead me to believe all the hysteria have only made the inevitable harder on the animals involved. The cycle will continue to run its course.
Compromising the culling system, necessary to deal with the inevitable liquidation, has had some other unintended consequences. Could that be called collateral damage? The horses who were “saved” (“saved” in very loose fashion) have remained in a market place which had no other use for them prior to their “rescue.” One of them has stolen the place of another horse, who on the open market may or may not have been more saleable or be useable. There are only so many horsemen of ANY type available to care for any horse.
The lower floor on the market, shaming of people to give away horses rather than “subject them to the auction,” the unsupervised adoption process from the federal government for backyard “rescues” and other factors, has made it possible for many, who shouldn’t be allowed to own anything other a pet rock, to enter the horse breeding business. They have given the humane horse culture a splashy, new fun term, BYB (back yard breeder).
Joe BYB reads about the high selling yearling at XYXZ production sale bringing $12,0000, or sees the top horse at XXXX Saturday Sale bring $3,500. Joe’s prospect is the same color, has some of the same breeding and he is FREE! This explains how we enter end of the production cycle. Some people maintain Joe will be weeded out if the financial “reward” of slaughter is removed. Joe will remain, much as puppy mills have flourished. People who continue to dump cats in my driveway remain, despite the absence of a financial floor on the companion animal market. As an “added bonus,” the head case animal hoarders have another “pet” to torture, while doing them a “favor” by keeping them alive. Horse hoarding abuse cases are becoming common.
I don’t see the market place, or anything else, weeding these people out. In the future, euthanasia stations will serve the same purpose as animal shelters do now. This is another consequence, yet unaddressed, in preparing for the passage of any pending legislation. These stations will be absolutely necessary the week following any passage of export and criminalization laws. We must be prepared for them to become as controversial and funding needy as the companion animal shelters now. The line between “valuable” and “worthless” will become as blurry and as quickly interchangeable for horses as it presently is for purebred dogs and cats.
Unchanging factors include the enormous investments in time, skill, equipment, and facilities involved in producing a safe, useful horse. These are not cheap. As the lack of competent trainers becomes more pronounced, the concept of value-added agriculture, as it has applied to horses for generations, will become more apparent. Someone still needs to ride the horses. The horse as a pet or pasture buddy still requires fencing, facilities, and basic ground handling training for safe health maintenance care. Think it’s a bitch to treat a pissed off Labrador? Try it with a 1,400 pound mature draft-cross rescue with no manners and a bad attitude. Whether it’s a rescue or training facility, horses are still horses. No matter how much the companion animal culture humanizes them, horses will still think, perceive their world, and react as horses. Environment will not alter DNA. This will eliminate many a “rescuer.”
If the pending legislation is passed in its intended form, the future of the horse industry cannot be predicted. The industry will not see the full effects for another six to ten years. We are only now dealing with the over-production stage of the cycle, which began during the high tide of the 90’s, caused in part by the liquidation of the 80’s. No one is reinventing the wheel- though many would like to think so.
There was a horse industry before the slaughter for human consumption debate and it will be here after the dust settles. Disciplines and training will remain. A good horse will always be worth something. More than ever before, those with the skill and the right horses will be in the driver’s seat. Without doubt there will be reductions and changes. They were coming anyway. There’s an old trader saying for that, too, “He’s worth whatever you have guts enough to ask and what somebody will pay for him.”

written by R.H.1



  2. How was the liquidation (is this another new word for slaughter?) hurt when we had the second highest slaughter count since 1995?

    How about asking the AQHA to fork over some of the millions they spend on promoting horse killing to create some programs to take care of all those quarter horse culls going to slaughter? That would eliminate half of the problem.

    Why no mention of the new EU regulations?

  3. Europeans focus on food safety issue -- no more poisoned American horse meat
    > Hitchcock, TX (PRWEB) August 8, 2009 -- For decades, the gourmet diners of Europe and Japan have eaten American horse meat poisoned by chemical contamination. The horse flesh exporting by unscrupulous producers and horse slaughter plants will come to an end in April of 2010. The new rules enacted by the European Union will mandate chemical free horse meat entering those countries.
    > American horses are routinely given powerful chemicals prohibited for human consumption such as wormers, Phenylbutazone (Bute), and a host of other deadly medications which are life giving to a horse but cause serious medical issues when ingested by humans. Like DDT, banned for similar reasons, some of these compounds such as Bute remain in a horse's body long after administered. Studies indicate medical issues such as birth defects, anemia, and cancer are brought on when these dangerous chemicals are consumed by humans.
    > The ban was quietly announced by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency in late July. It quickly exploded across the Internet as news of it made its way to anti-slaughter websites and finally to mainstream equine media worldwide. With the new ban in place, the slaughter of horses exposed to these drugs will stop and the production of commercially available horse meat will grind to a halt.
    > "We have known of the dangers of chemicals in American horsemeat for years, but our warnings have often fallen on deaf ears," said Jerry Finch, founder of Habitat for Horses, the nation's largest all breed equine rescue organization.
    > "Thankfully, agencies in the European Union responsible for health safety realized that there is virtually no testing for dangerous chemicals in American horses being sold for food," he said. "Foreign governments will inadvertently bring the slaughter of American horses to a halt while the American government, with their failure to pass legislation, has simply ignored the health of the European people."
    > Finch says that the same EU rules will halt the export of American horses slaughtered in Mexico for European consumption.
    > About Habitat for Horses:
    > Habitat for Horses (HfH) is a not-for-profit equine protection agency committed to the prevention, rescue and rehabilitation of neglected and abused horses. The largest organization of its kind in North America, HfH operates a rehabilitation ranch in Hitchcock, Texas, as well as a growing network of foster homes throughout the United States.

  4. Check history and facts.

    www.fda.gov/cvm/Documents/bse2.pdf - 12-02-2005 - Text Version

    Excerpt -

    2.9 Profile of Horse Producers

    Horse producing, slaughtering, and rendering activities are also among the agricultural operations that could be affected by the FDA regulatory options. In the U.S., horses are not raised for specifically for slaughter, but old (false, facts show majority of slaughtered horses are young, healthy, and sound) horses are sold at auction to slaughterers.

    In 1995, 106,200 head of equine were slaughtered at federally inspected plants (USDA, 1996). Horse slaughtering has been decreasing in the U.S. due to public outrage over horse slaughtering and foreign embargoes on the imports of U.S. horse meat. The 1995 figures represent a decrease of more than 50 percent from a total slaughter of approximately 244,000 equine in 1992 (Bauer, 1993).

    The more than 50% decrease in 3 short years did not result in 137,800 horses being left to starve, nor did it result in 137,800 horses in need of euthanasia or 137,800 carcasses in need of disposal, or 137,800 horses getting dumped off into horse rescues, prior to 1993 they were slaughtering over 300,000 horses annually in this country, we had HALF the horse population we do now, about 14 horse slaughterhouses, and very few horse rescues during that time. These horses were merely absorbed back into the horse community through the usual route. Slaughter buying is a competitive and predatory business, slaughter buyers compete against regular horse buyers. Slaughter buyers will answer classified ads and lie to sellers "the horse is going to a children's riding school" or what have you. This isn't a "service". This is profit driven to fill trucks to get them to slaughter. If this were a service, then all they would need to do is open a business, put up signs, advertise "we buy your unwanted horses" and that's it. People can sell their horses to them if they want.

    I'm a life long horse owner, myself and every other horse owner I've ever known in my life and I've known a lot, have never ever needed to sell a horse to slaughter. We have had to euthanize several horses over the years, this is not an expensive service our vets provide, but it is a service - unlike slaughter.

  5. PS --

    The number of horses slaughtered annually is usually a result of how many horse slaughterhouses there are and their working capacity. The more slaughterhouses and the higher the capacity - the more horses are slaughtered. It's the capacity of the slaughterhouses that sets the number of "unwanted" horses.

    Prior to the US horse slaughterhouse closures very few horses were shipped to Mexico for slaughter, where their capacity was much higher than was utilized by US killer dealers. Now Mexico is being utilized. And of course after Cavel closed in Illinois they opened a slaughterhouse in Canada - so now more horses can be shipped to Canada for slaughter. Both of these factors increased the capacity to slaughter horses, which is why we've had the increase in slaughter numbers.

    It will be interesting to see how profits hold up when they have to hold US horses for a 6 month period before slaughtering - as per EU food safety concerns which were LONG overdue.
    That's going to be an awful lot of horses to feed and house for 6 months at a time.

  6. Back at the Ranch????, real horse people ???? that understand getting rid of their culls even if it means abuse and being butchered alive. AQHA with their overbreeding policies so they can get more registration fees ruined the horse trade. No body else, ever here of supply in demand...flood the markets with your culls,send them to slaughter, this makes sense to you oh mighty rancher. Thank the lord not all rancher/horse owners feel this way, most have a heart and a head on their shoulders, just a very small percent think like you. Horses are companion pets, not hamberger for Europe, Save the Horses.

  7. Most of the folks who are pro-slaughter usually shut up once they actually look at images of the slaughter process. For those pro folks who haven't taken the time to see the truth go to YouTube and key in horse slaughter in the search field then sit back and see what actually happens during this process from auction to the horse's actual death at the hands of uncaring individuals.
    To subject our companion animals to this horror story is shameful. And shame on those of you who support horse slaughter.

  8. Thank you for a really well written article that touches on a lot of valid points. From the majority of the responses I'm reading, I'm guessing that very few took the time to actually read it.

  9. The EU and Canada are cracking down on druggy US horse meat. They have imposed a 180 day withdrawal period for US horses. The US horse slaughter industry may have destroyed itslef with greed all by itself.

    Race horses go “from stable to table in 7 days” along with a cocktail party of you-name-it drugs. No vet records go with horses stolen or sold to slaughter. For good reason. Bute? No withdrawal period. Zero tolerance. Wormers? Same. Causes cancer. Nasty disease, that. At least you have a chance with cancer. The unborn child your slaughtered broodmare's Regu-Mate residue kills? That little soul never even had a chance at life.

    Overblown? Emotional argument? Don't bet the farm on it. Don't ask the maybe 275 million Americans who want horse slaughter stopped. You've been ignoring us anyway. Ask the people of the European Union, who you depend on to buy the horses you discard.

    The EU and Canada, and soon, Mexico, are taking strong action to protect themselves against known health risk of US horse meat. They are cracking down, finally, on what the AVMA and the AQHA and the AAEP should have admitted all along - US horse meat can kill.

    Horses were never raised for the food supply in this country. That's the problem - Americans (and by this I don't include the thieves in Florida stealing companion horses and cutting off meat while the animals are alive) don't eat horses, dogs or cats. Social taboos aside, common sense says none of these three species is safe to eat if they've ever been treated by a vet.

    Horses get drugs like EPOs, Bute, wormers. Lasix. Fertility drugs that - even in minute doses - cause spontaneous abortions in humans. Speed. Testosterone. Snake venom, for heaven's sake. Not good. Not good for horses, and sure enough not good - or legal - to sell to human beings to eat.

    Regu-Mate, miscarriages, killing the unborn. Emotional argument? I guess it depends on what an acceptable level of spontaneous abortions is vis a vis what you'll pocket by slaughtering your breeding stock instead of providing for a responsible retirement. If it was my grandchild, I'd say the acceptable level of miscarriages is zero.

    Forget the suffering of the horses for a moment. US horse slaughter is cruelty to people. The fact that the pro-slaughter camp swept toxic drugs banned from the food supply under the rug as long as it did proves the underlying sleaze, the Bernie Madoff house of greed its disinformation campaign was made of.

    Overblown? Don't bet the farm on it. A suggestion to the AQHA: Don't over-breed and bank on a slaughter market this time next year to dump your healthy foals, beings whose only failure was being born with last year's fashionable color.

    Here's a little historical perspective: When ONE US bovine was found with BSE, over 40 countries closed their borders to US beef, overnight. The EU takes the safety of its food supply very, very seriously.

    Selling toxic substances in food - knowing you're doing it - is a shameful violation of the public trust. In China, the executives who knew they were polluting the food supply with toxic melamine - these guys were beheaded.

    We're a civilized country. We have other ways to punish wrongdoers, but the US government needs to act fast to protect the credibility of our agricultural markets overseas.

    The US Farm Bureau ought to revisit its pro-slaughter stance while the explosion of bad news on drugs in US horse meat has hit the press. With the EU slapping a 180 day withdrawal period on druggy US horses - for starters - it won't look good for the pro-slaughter lobby to fight the Federal ban on selling horse meat laced with drugs that will (even in minute amounts) cause miscarriage to unsuspecting women overseas.

    Melamine, China. Horse drugs, US. Same thing - Selling food that'll make people sick. Different nouns, same verbs, same adjectives.

    Here's what I think: The longer the pro-slaughter lobby pushes for business as usual, the sooner our foreign customers will stop buying it.

  10. "Unknown" I suppose you can have your pity party BBQ, just please don't invite - and poison - my kids with the drugs banned from the food supply you'll be serving along with the horses.

    Breaking news - The next chapter in the US horse slaughter history books is not being written by American citizens, or by US legislators, or law enforcement. Nope. All these back and forths, unwanted horses, yada yada disinformation from the AQHA, 900 pages of Freedom of Information USDA cruelty proof from a 10 month period in 2005 - suddenly irrelevant in the breaking news of the biggest fraud of the US horse slaughter industry: Toxic drugs in the food supply - the brewing crackdown by the EU and Canada.

    US horses are suddenly becoming "unwanted" overseas.

    The EU is cracking down - Canada's new 180 day waiting period on US horses will add a whopping surtax to the wholesale cost in a market that - because of our actions - no longer trusts us. Mexico must comply with its 3 EU slaughter houses, too.

    Since there are no withdrawal periods for common equine drugs - bute, wormers - the new 180 day rule may be only the beginning.

    Every US horse shipped to slaughter puts human beings at risk. There is no defense, no counter argument to the fact that, like the melamine contamination in Chinese wheat gluten, eggs, grain, you name it, the US horse slaughter industry knew it was risking people’s health all along.

    Horse slaughter has always been a demand driven industry. Without markets to buy, there is no slaughter. This is the future the pro-slaughter lobby is careening towards while it nitpicks about the definition of "unwanted" and writes off the pro-horse community’s evidence as emotional arguments.

    If stringing up a horse by the leg and dismembering it awake doesn't bother you, and apparently it does not, how does miscarriage, cancer, aplastic anemia in kids work? Because these diseases - and more - are now being traced to the drugs US horse slaughter exporters have been knowingly dosing our neighbors overseas with for years.

    Frankly, the drug issue is more abhorrent - and unforgivable - than any part of this story to date. The US horse slaughter industry, with its narcissistic disregard for human welfare, is destroying itself more effectively than a million horse - loving children marching on the US Capital ever could.

    US Horse slaughter hurts HUMAN BEINGS. Children. Pregnant women. Suddenly, it's not only about the horse. It's about people

  11. Crimminal Horse Abuser Ernie Paragallo - Busted for Neglected Horses Found In Kill Pen

    Breaking news this week: Ernie Paragallo, wealthy race horse breeder busted for 22 counts of animal cruelty for his puppy mill style horse farm on April 8 - that Paragallo - was just charged with 7 more counts of animal cruelty. Where did police find the latest starving, neglected Paragallo horses? At a slaughter feedlot, of course. Perps like Paragallo routinely use slaughter to avoid taking responsibility - and to stay above the law.

    Slaughter begets cruelty. Cruelty begets slaughter. 28 more hungry Paragallo horses were traced to a slaughter lot. Happens all the time. Perp gets wind of a cruelty investigation and calls the meat man. No evidence, no case. Paragallo's tale of suffering shows just how slaughter bails out cruelty. Police will tell you it abets criminal behavior, too.

    Drug crackdown oversease, cruelty documents, stolen horses, dismembering horses alive. The US horse slaughter industry is killing itself and the power of the internet is making it public knowledge.

    Now is the time to close this chapter in our history and work together to find solutions to overbreeding, rehoming, and to enforce cruelty laws so people don't ramp up from hurting horses to hurting people. Eventually, all this comes back to us, full circle.

    I've been around horses for over 50 years. I've never seen one that needed to go to slaughter, but I've seen plenty of horse owners who don't have a clue what really makes them tick. People whose arrogance comes back to bite them.

    Unfortunately, the horses tend to take the hit from people like that, and the slaughter trucks are full of horses from people who should never have had them. These horses are the unfortunate by products of irresponsible breeding and greed.

    Now that the EU is coming down hard on drugs in US horse meat, maybe overbreeding will get reined in.

    Horses mirror the worst, and the best in us. If you think they don't know who will ship them to slaughter and and who will not, and some times reflect that intuitive awareness in their behavior towards people, you are seriously underestimating them - and overestimating yourself.

  12. Ranch Manger,
    Take a moment to google this, "An Embargo on Breeding? Tough Talk in Ireland on Tackling Equine Overpopulation Problem." [Note: horse slaughter IS legal there and they are talking about not breeding!]

    Frankly as someone who does not breed, rehomes discarded animals, and funds spay & neuter programs, I'd love to see a license-for-breeding program for horses in the US, just like Ireland is talking about right now. The only way to get through to some people is through their wallet.

  13. One more comment on your Ranch description - "Kind of a rural voice of real horse owners"

    Please check the American Horse Council's website for their statistics. Ranching and several other horse-related activities rate so low in numbers they're listed under one category together - "Other". The top spot and largest population of horse owners goes to Recreational Riders - we are the Real Horse Owners I hate to tell ya. Ranchers somehow think they should have some authority on how horses are treated and used in this country. Treat 'em like livestock, like cows I guess. When you're done with 'em - slaughter 'em and make another buck.

    Meanwhile, not back at the ranch, the majority of real horse owners treat their animals with respect & kindness, and give them a dignified "good" death when the time comes by calling their vet. We are not the "bottom-of-the-barrel" lowest minority of horse owners who see no difference between our horses and your cows. That my friend is you and who you represent.

    "Loose horses" is just a term for horses no one bothered to train. Without slaughter someone will have to bother. The owners of loose horses sentence those horses to death. The owners are the responsible ones, not the "loose" horses. But I guess not being responsible is okay in the business of ranching and trading.

    The worst abuses known to farm animals including horses takes place on auction properties. This is not something to be proud of, and you claim to represent the business of auctions too. And I know there are many many trainers in this country who would not appreciate being lumped in with the trainers you claim to represent with your views. I also know there are many ranchers who do not share your views also.

  14. Well looks like the entire AB forum is here or maybe the fugly followers are going through comment withdrawal on her blog and came here. lol. Rita- I think you are right, most of these people did not actually READ the post. Must be why so many anti slaughter individuals continue to remain ignorant of real facts.

  15. I can't speak for all pro horse people but the EU food safety regulations have no bearing on my opinion of what a real horseman is, has no bearing on taking away personal property rights in the US and I honestly feel they are doing a good thing for their people. The new EU regulations do n0t make them anti slaughter and their decision had nothing to do with you anti slaughter radicals. It has nothing to do with HORSE slaughter, it has everything to do with FOOD safety. So stop patting yourselves on the back for a regulation put in place in another country (saw that being done on the ab forum) it makes you look really stupid!

  16. The EU is concerned only with food safety. Humane treatment is not an issue with them. I am not so sure I would bet the farm on slaughter begetting cruelty. Please refer me to starving abandoned cattle statistics. That's not to say the entire cattle feeding process is rosy. It's not. No value animals begett cruelty.

    We'll address the EU regulations. I haven't read them entirely. But at this point I think the impending legisation could give good cause to write some very important legisatlation concerning some very important issues in horse processing. A chance to write a realistic plan to deal with something that, in one form or another, will need to be addressed as long as we produce horses for whatever reason.

    I believe the recreational riders have become the majority. No arguement here. I also believe with the help of the show and race horse breeders they produce the majority of the slaughter bound horses. Nearly all of my sale horses come from the recreational rider/breeder.

    I will not enter into this debate using "my" horses or how I run my program. I don't feel my personal program is important enough to base nation wide opinion or legislation. In short I don't expect anyone out there "to do as I do".

    I have bought several young horses out of the loose horse run and done very well with them. How about you?

    Yes, liquidation does involve slaghter. It will always involve some form of culling since the liquidated product has to go somewhere.

  17. It's hard to answer someone who comments directly to me when they do it as anonymous....
    Anonymous said...
    Ranch Manger,
    Take a moment to google this, "An Embargo on Breeding? Tough Talk in Ireland on Tackling Equine Overpopulation Problem." [Note: horse slaughter IS legal there and they are talking about not breeding!]

    Take a look at the real breeders(real meaning men and women who are educated in horses and breeding and understand the goal) and see how many have stopped or cut back. Registry of new foals in many associations is down by quite a bit. But see even Ireland knows that the slaughter issue and the irresponsible breeding issue don't actually go hand in hand.....

  18. Susan said "Overblown? Emotional argument? Don't bet the farm on it. Don't ask the maybe 275 million Americans who want horse slaughter stopped."

    If those Americans (275 million) would each send me a dollar a year I could open my rescue, rehab, retirement, free euth and disposal services facility. I actually wrote up a business plan for it, yes even if it's non profit it is still business. All I need now is money and lots land.....

  19. Ranch Manager, don’t assume because someone is pro horse, they are from ABR or Fugly. There are thousands and thousands of individuals across the country, Canada and the UK that are working on ending horse slaughter. I cofounded the Equine Welfare Alliance with John Holland – the John Holland that you mentioned in your opinion. Contrary to Rita’s comment, we read the drivel being posted by anti-horse proponents.

    You have made several valid points in your opinion. In particular, the cyclical nature of livestock. The USDA and FDA do not classify horses as food animals. Since the country views livestock as food animals, horses do not fall into that category but horse prices do experience cyclical changes. What you call horses is of no relevance. The fact is that they are bred and raised to perform other functions. Like dogs, they are sport, service, work, therapy, performance and companion animals. They herd livestock. They are used in law enforcement and therapy. They have been named athlete of the year. Do you know any food animals that carry a $20M dollar life insurance policy? The $41B horse industry was made from live horses, not from their slaughter.

    We do not condemn nor want to change the cultures of countries that consume horse meat. They are free to eat whatever they choose but if they choose horse meat, they can kill their own horses. There is no other business that has ever operated on US soil that shipped their entire product overseas. We slaughter no other animal that we do not consume.

    The horses going to slaughter are not low end. The USDA and Grandin have both reported that over 94% are of an average age of 7, fit, sound and usable. They may be unusable to the breeders that have breed in excess or the unlucky foals that happened to be the wrong color. Rescued horses have gone on to be named USEF horse of the year and have lead productive lives in performing, riding horses, therapy and a host of other careers.

    Horses are living beings, not tin cans with salvage value. I don’t buy the need for culling. Don’t produce more horses than there is a demand for. It is supply and demand 101. The year after the plants shut down, the AQHA registered 140,000 foals (Equus Magazine Jan ’09 issue). Do you call that cutting back? It is no great mystery why Quarter Horses are the leading breed going to slaughter. They continue to produce more horses, year after year, in excess of the demand.

    Slaughter perpetuates the irresponsible breeding and hides abuse and neglect. Ending slaughter will not totally eliminate it but if the breeders have an ounce of intelligence, they’ll make adjustments. Abuse and neglect were just as prevalent when the plants were open. The largest horse seizure in US history took place in 2005 when all three plants were operating. As long as man owns animals, there will be abuse and neglect. There will be irresponsible owners but to continue to perpetuate it with slaughter, is not the answer. Slaughter is a symptom, not a cure.

  20. Vicki, I have to say that I am surprised you say you read the entire post and yet you address me as though I was the author. It was written by RH1. I do agree with her opinion completely. An opinion based on actual facts and research.
    I have already read so much of the long winded non factual garbage the anti slaughter side has put out and your comment (which I read in it's entirety) is no different. It is simply your opinion posted as fact. At least the title of our blog post you are trying to correct clearly states it is an opinion piece.
    But since you mentioned good ol John boy I thought you may enjoy another post that was on our blog not too long ago. http://backattheranch1.blogspot.com/2009/07/saturday-satire-1.html

  21. Ranch manager, exactly what is not factual in my post?

  22. Hey, this is one busy post! I agree, either it's a slow day on ABR, or the Fugly crowd just found a new playground!'I, too am rather at a loss where the pending EU regulations fit in with the article posted, but I imagine that the Anti crowd was just so excited about it they couldn't wait to talk about it! Personally, I think it just may present us with some good alternatitives, but I kind of doubt some of our commenters would be interested in hearing them. And as someone else wisely stated, they have nothing to do with Slaughter, but with Health issues. But, hey, hang on, and post away, it's breaking news, and cause for celebration. I recall the same excitement when the Anti Slaughter crowd succeeded in closing the plants in America and thus ended Slaughter. And As Dr. Phil might say, "how's THAT workin' for ya?"
    We're still unable to make some understand that Pro Horse is NOT Pro Slaughter. I, for one have not told anyone that the only end of life choice they should make is Slaughter. I do know that it should be one that is available, though.
    I couldn't begin to address some of the silly comments made on here, and with so many "Anonymous" posters, don't know how to direct my responses to the proper "Anonymous" poster.
    I would like to comment on the definition of a "loose horse" provided by well...."Anonymous". Not sure if this person conducted a study, or just found out this piece of information on their own, but "Anonymous",(not to be confused with "Anonymous" or "Anonymous", has come to the educated conclusion that a "loose Horse" is -wait for it - simply a horse no one has bothered to train!!!!! Talk about Over Simplifying an issue! If that's the only problem we have, why haven't the Rescues managed to get 'em broke and into homes? Why aren't there lines of people at sales with trainers in tow picking out the size, age, and color of horse they want? For that matter, what am I doing sitting here, when I could be looking for a sale to go to? I've trained a few horses in my day, and didn't realize that there was such a huge selection of horses to be had! And all they lack is training? If we can just get the word out, I believe we've just solved the excess horse population problem! So, thanks, "Anonymous"....no, not you, the OTHER "Anonymous"! It's comments like this one, and others posted here, and attitudes like some of the ones on here that make it impossible for any of us to move forward. And, believe it or not, we want to. You may not like us, but we ARE part of the Equine Industry. And we're just as important as you are. You can tell yourselves that our voices don't count, but that would be a huge mistake.
    And for those who are confused about who we are, it's right at the top of the page...just takes a minute to read, and it does NOT say it's just ranchers.

  23. Rita...be nice I am the "bad" cop, you're the nice one who trys to talk to people and understand. Good answer...

  24. Vicki, I have posted a response in the regular blog.

  25. It is nothing new to hear, I won’t respond to silly comments. That is anti-horse speak for I can’t dispute facts so I am going to ignore them or change the subject.

    You are correct, Rita. Pro horse is not pro slaughter. Pro horse are the people that are for the welfare of horses and against their slaughter. Anti-horse are the people that put forth propaganda in support of horse slaughter. The type that keep saying that only the old, infirm, crippled and dangerous horses go to slaughter. The type that play upon emotions to scare people into thinking we are all vegans trying to bring down agriculture. The type that twist the bill language to scare people into thinking they won’t be able to transport their horses across the street. The type that blame the slaughter house closings on abuse, neglect and abandonment even though anyone wishing to send their horse to slaughter can still do so. They also forget that the largest seizure for neglect happened in 2005 when all three plants were operating.

    The point of the EU regulations was not to celebrate but to depict another example of lies being told by the anti-horse folks relating to horse slaughter. You know, the argument on how highly regulated horse slaughter is and that the meat is safe.

  26. Vicki was this -" It is nothing new to hear, I won’t respond to silly comments. That is anti-horse speak for I can’t dispute facts so I am going to ignore them or change the subject."
    Directed to me? I didn't change the subject or ignore anything. I told you I posted my response in the blog. By the way WE are pro-Horse. I can't believe you stole the lable and are now claiming it as your own. Gosh how original. lol

  27. Rita,
    We always knew Canada and Mexico would pick up the slack of the closed US plants. We followed the investment trail.
    You are missing the basic economic message of the EU regulations. We'll slow it down.
    To sell a product, you need customers.
    If the markets close, or become prohibitive to service (180 day holding, and that may not be the final word with, uh, cobra venom and so on) you will have no place to sell your so-called "unwanted" horses. In other words, the kill buyers will have no contracts from Belgium to fill so they won't be buying. You will have to find other solutions, and I sincerely hope you choose something that doesn't cause so much pain to the animals in your care. That's called personal responsibility.
    There's a lot more to understanding market forces than that, but we'll sum it up like this: no markets, no slaughter.
    What's revealing, you seem OK with selling contaminated meat to families overseas. If you've used bute or a wormer once, and sold the horse to slaughter, you've violated FDA labeling and put people's health at risk.
    What the world is hearing from US horse slaughterers, "it's all about me, to heck with the rest of the world. I'll do what I want and if somebody has a problem with that, it's their problem."
    But we are all inter-related, and our rights are a balancing act. We enact laws to keep one person's so-called rights (or might) from stampeding over another's. Regulations keeping poison out of the food supply are needed because not everybody has, you know, empathy for their fellow man. Violating regs about contaminants in food has consequences. Again, in China, melamine, beheading. US horse slaughterers now face a 180 day withdrawal period. Same exact concept - living within the consequences of your actions. It's called, being accountable to something besides greed.
    We've learned from law enforcement professionals, and psychologists who deal with animal abusers, lack of empathy towards animals often runs hand in hand with lack of empathy towards humans.
    Horse slaughter, to the extent that someone profits from suffering or causing harm to another is the worst kind of selfish greed. Bernie Madoff in a double decker truck.

  28. "We always knew Canada and Mexico would pick up the slack of the closed US plants."
    We? If thats the case then why did so many anti-slaughter supporters call me an idiot when I said it would happen? That was about 5 yrs ago and I believe John Holland was one of them.
    As for the EU regulations putting kill buyers out of business... I think your wrong. But we will have to wait and see, just as we did with the horses being shipped over the border to be slaughtered.

  29. Vicki, thank you for agreeing with me. Yes, Pro horse people, like myself, and others here on the Back at the Ranch blogspot are definately concerned about the welfare of the horse, ours and others. That's why we work so hard on the issues we are involved in. Yes, the Slaughter issue is one of them, but not the only one. Many of us choose to work to decrease the number of horses going to Slaughter, because we know that Slaughter will always be a fact of life. We understand it's place in the Equine Industry. No propaganda here, just a real and honest view of life that allows us to make decisions that make sense and help us take actions that help the horses. Like working to re-open the plants in America so horses do not have to travel to foreign countries in unregulated trailers to meet a horrific death. For many of us, this is unacceptable. I don't know about the other people you have encountered on the Pro horse side, but I am pretty honest. I have never stated that only the old and infirm go to Slaughter. But they, along with the injured and the dangerous were among those who went. Now, with the closing of the American plants, we are seeing these horses left behind, often in situations that are abusive, neglectful, and worse. Again, we find this unacceptable. The emotional attack method is not something I have seen used by the Pro horse side. While we love and care for our horses, we also understand that not everyone views their horse in the same way. I don't mind those who feel their horses are big puppy dogs. I'd like for them to train them, of course, but if they don't, it's their business. I'm certainly not going to tell them they can't treat them like pets. But I draw the line at their insistence that I, or everyone else do the same. And it is a well known fact that the HSUS supports and promotes a Vegan lifestyle. They really do not have any stake in the Equine issues other than to promote that. If you have any doubt of that, do a little research, and find out exactly what the HSUS does and does NOT do. They bring in quite a bit of money, yet don't seem to be doing a whole lot to actually help the horses. The language in some of the original equine related legislation was ambiguous at best, and was certainly something to worry about. And since those enforcing the legislation would most likely not be familiar with horses, it would be up to them to make the judgement call. So, yes, there was reason to worry. You're missing the point on the connection between Slaughter and abuse and neglect. The point has been and always will be that whether or not the plants are here, or in Mexico or Canada, horses will be neglected and abused. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH SLAUGHTER. We have laws on the books to deal with those who do not properly care for their horses, and we should insist that these laws be enforced to their fullest. By the time a horse reaches a sale barn in poor condition, it is too late to lay the blame. We have already dropped the ball. The Anti side can't seem to grasp this. We're fully aware that those wishing to send their horses to Slaughter can do so, and intend to keep it that way. We feel however, that it is a travesty that American horses should have to take such an awful journey to an inhumane death when we could re-open the plants here, and regulate transport and the plants on American soil.
    I don't get where you feel we're lying concerning the EU issue. Many of us are in favor of it, as it has nothing to do with Slaughter, it is a health issue. had you been paying attention, we have been saying how we need to re-open the plants in America so we could regulate transport and slaughter.
    I know that you may not agree with a lot of what we're doing, but we have not seen a lot of what the Anti side has done as any accomplishment for the good of American horses. Some of the most horrific suffering of American Horses to date has come at the hands of "Anti Slaughter" people. I'll stick to the Pro Horse side.

  30. Susan, If you knew that, then why send American horses on unregulated trailers to plants where they meet such a horrific death? That has never been an acceptable solution for me.
    I know you think you're onto something here, and, as with the closing of the plants in America, I think you'll find out it won't work out quite as planned. This doesn't go into effect until 2010 from what I am understanding, and I am sure that, as with the closing of the American plants, there are things being put into place as we speak to insure that those involved will be able to comply.
    You said to sell a product you need customers - is it your understanding that there will no longer be a demand for horse meat?
    I found your paragraph about us all being inter-related, and rights being a balancing act very enlightening. I can't tell you how many times I've felt the exact same way about the Anti side trying to push their version of what they feel is right down my throat. But you're right, it would be a better world if we could all have more respect for each other, and realize that for the most part, each of us will make the right choice for our personal circumstance. But, I'm getting off course here, and I'm sure you don't want to hear about your side's shortcomings.......
    Not to nitpick, but there ARE no U.S. Horse Slaughterers. So they must be hearing that from the Canadian and Mexican Slaughterers...And I hope you're not suggesting beheading? But I wouldn't be entirely surprised....
    I like the Bernie Madoff angle, I've heard it a few times before. Always good to throw in something new in the greed paragraph.
    What do Law enforcement officials and Psychologists say about those who have no empathy for their fellow human beings? Just wondering.....
    As far as your revelation concerning my apparent lack of conscience over selling contaminated meat to families overseas-how did you come by this?

  31. r.h.1.....sorry:) I'm having a cranky day. We put up 200 bales of hay, and then I came in and read this. Should have had a nice cold glass of tea first!

  32. What a mess... Everyone if forgetting (anti's) what it is all about.. remember the good old days when your horse came up missing and with any luck you might find it at the slaughter kill pen or at the sale yard.. now where do you find it.. in the back yard or stable row dead with half of body gone because someone has cut it up and its on the black market now. Oh for the good old days to return. At least then you might have a chance to save your pony.
    I am sure now that the EU has put a hold on horses with "NO" med. profile when sold there will be some studys on how long what ever takes to work its way out of the horses body.. but tell me.. why would you have to worm your horse every three months if the wormer is still working????? because it is NOT. and People that send horses to the killer do not give there horses Bute and most do not spend the money to worm every three months.. I only worm twice a year.. they dont need more then that. and If I use bute or pen. or any meds on a horse it is because that horse is worth it. hence.. Not a Killer horse.
    Horses are starved... turned loose... walked away from because people can not aford them no more... no jobs... no money for feed.. no way to get horse to sale barn. and no one that wants it when given away. People around her do not even brand no more because as i was told... that way if the horse is not worth anything.. it is turned out on BLM and when someone finds it they cant bring it back.
    You Anti's are making it out to be a bad thing to be a horse owner and breeder... but you city people with your little pony in its nice stable think you know all about horses just because you go for pony rides one or two times a month... NOPE you know nothing... read all you want.. you still wont get it...Book smart does not make you life smart. just means you know how to read.
    Horses are Livestock.. and will always stay livestock.. just because you do not eat horse meat does not mean that everyone is the same as you... Horse meat was sold in the US up to the 80's, And I am sure that there is many places that sale it as of today... only now we have to get it from the EU because of the no USDA insp.
    Do not blame all the starved and inhumane tretment of horses on the breeder. I am a breeder and take very good care of my horses. But the vet is only called with its a life or death thing on a horse that is a keeper.
    You people need to change the book you read now and then.. oh ya and as for the study on the killer horses.. and the crap about them going over the border in the same truck that left the stock yards.. that the biggest pile of crap.. horses have to be unloaded on the US side and walked across the border into mexico.. canada is different.. paperwork is looked at and then they are taken across but not before they spend so many days in the feed lot on the US side. most of the pictures i see posted and video's are from years ago. Slaughter will never be fazed out.

  33. Anonymous, it is curious that you say people are turning their horses loose and starving them. Why is that? Slaughter is still available to anyone wishing to send their horse. Same auctions, same KBs. Why aren't they sending them to slaughter?

    Perhaps it is for the same reason that owners of dogs and cats abuse them rather than take them to a shelter, or why cattle are being neglected or a human abuses a child. It has nothing to do with “disposal” options being available. The owner can send his horse to slaughter, the dog and cat owner can dump their pets at a shelter and the human that is abusing a child, has many options.

    The largest seizure of horse neglect took place in 2005, when all three plants were operating. Why didn't those horses go to slaughter?

    The new EU regulations will still not address bute. Any animal, cattle included, that has received bute at any time, cannot be slaughtered. Period. There is no withdrawal period. Your comments that horses going to slaughter don’t have bute are hysterical. Race horses go from the track, straight to kill. You know the slaughter house slogan, 7 days stable to table. Bute is only one of the meds in their system. Then you have the horses that are drugged to go to auction to appear calm or to mask lameness or illnesses. What about the horses that are stolen and sent to slaughter? You have no idea of their health, meds or any illnesses they may carry. There are no production records on horses. There are no drug protocols on horses. The FDA classifies horses as companion animals. There are no drug protocols for companion animals because all the meds they are given are clearly labeled, not for food animals. If there wasn’t an issue with our horses, the EU wouldn’t be issuing new regs. We have an interview with a manager of a slaughter house in Canada that said they have no idea of the safety of our horses for consumption because there is no paperwork. So I guess, the slaughter houses, the vets, the pro horse advocates, the FDA, the responsible owners – just about everyone is lying except those that support slaughter.

    No, we are not making owners and breeders out to be bad people. The majority are responsible, run their businesses and provide for a humane death for their animals. It is minority that whine for slaughter.

  34. There has have been some excellent comments here and I will not attempt to add my opinion (much). But I will offer some history and data so everyone can make their own judgments.

    The statement "slaughter numbers have been dropping for many years" is not exactly accurate, and is later contradicted by the statement about 2008 numbers being the second highest since 1995. So here is what has happened.

    The total (export plus domestic) slaughter numbers dropped from 419,000 in 1990 to 78,000 in 2002 and then, began a steady increase.

    The upward trend was dampened at first by the burning of Cavel, and there was another small dip in 2007 when the domestic plants were closed, but the trend continued in 2008. Not until this year have we seen the beginning of a real decline.

    Nobody knows the full dynamic and we learn more every day. For example, exports were my first concern when Ensign-Byrd passed. We were told Ensign-Byrd would close the borders, but that was not true as we all now know.

    Even so, I fully admit did not expect that there would be enough spare capacity to immediately make up for the US plants even though we knew the Texas plants were already building new facilities in Mexico (in anticipation they would lose the long court battle).

    In part, our optimism was based on the affects of the closing of Cavel in 2002. Slaughter numbers did not recover their full upward trajectory until it was rebuilt in 2004.

    What we did not know was that the Canadian government had sponsored the building of several beef processing plants during the border closure because of BSE, and that those plants were laying idle by the time the US horse slaughter plants were closed down. So when Cavel was ordered closed, the numbers rebounded within two weeks.

    More interestingly, Henry Skjerven (a director of NVF) said they had only been limited by the number of horses they could get (between 9/07 and 1/09), not the market for the meat.

    A look at the big slaughter auctions reveals that despite the talk about "the bottom falling out of the market" after the US plants closed, these auctions in fact were moving fewer loose horses than normal at higher prices.

    So what about the horror stories of horses going for $10 at the local auction?

    I suspect that there was another factor here and that is the movement of many horse sales to sites like Craig's list. Many of the small regional auctions have closed their horse sales disrupting the horse dealer "circuits" of these smaller auctions that used to feed a lot of loose horses to places like New Holland.

    In other words, the small regional auctions appear to be wilting on the vine without the dealer coming through on loops that included slaughter auctions.

    But why has slaughter dropped this year? One reason could be the closing of the Natural Valley Farms complex by the CFIA. But that does not explain the drop in Mexico or the under utilization of other Canadian plants.

    One answer may be the economy. Horse meat is a luxury item in the EU. So just when we are told we have lots of "unwanted" horses because of the economy, the EU reduces their demand! And now they are getting all picky about what is in the meat.

    The reality is that slaughter is just a small part of the horse industry, and its demise will probably have little effect on most people in the business. Consider these numbers:

    The horse industry brings $141 Billion into the economy each year (AHC), and only 3 cents of every hundred dollars comes from the sale of horses to slaughter.

    We are sending only between 1% and 2% of our horses to slaughter each year.

    Only one horse in nine that die each year dies in slaughter.

    Now it looks like the EU's crackdown on contaminated meat may end the whole business before any law can. And what will happen? History says you won't notice it (unless you are directly involved in the slaughter industry).

  35. So to put what you took so long to say is 10% of the horses are generating 3% of horse income.

    It always amazes me how small the number is when we need to learn to do with out it.

    If the monetary reward gained by having slaughter is so small how will taking it away starve all those breeders into not breeding? See that's the arguement you have been pushing. If we stop rewarding those breeders with the slaughter market they will be forced out of business so the numbers will drop. How can this be true if the money is so insignificant?

    I wouldn't bet on the EU ending anything. We will simply export feeder horses instead of slaughter horses. But it does make any anti-slaughter regulations you can come up with in the future pretty much unenforceable.

    As you have mentioned horsemeat is a global market with an expanding global population and in case you haven't noticed the U.S. has more land to devote to animal production than most. We have the supply Mexico and Canada have the feedlots and the plants. We do it with cattle all the time my friend.

    Why do you think cattle producers have so pissy about that nasty little country of origin labeling law?

    If these countries didn't need our numbers they wouldn't be buying them now. I believe you even mentioned how the market was short tons when our plants closed.

    Would this be the same kind of attitude which allowed the export for slaughter to get by you? Which by the way, is one of the cruelest most irresponsible injustices ever dealt our stock in this country. We don't have the sand to kill them with our hands but we can ship them thousands of miles to let someone do an even crappier job buy them than we did.

    It really infuriates me....we all told you it would happen. Every livestock agency, every pro-slaughter person in the country told you it would happen. We told you but you were so wrapped in your me, me, me, I know best blanket you and yours took what you could get in any form and to hell with the horses. Now you come here and tell me it was a mistake....I can't say what I would like tooo.......

  36. How was the liquidation (is this another new word for slaughter?) hurt when we had the second highest slaughter count since 1995?<<<<<

    Well it wasn't, but that wasn't what I said now was it?

    Pay Attention....I said the liquidation was going to take place anyway was made harder on the animals involved I did not say the liquidation was hurt. Got it now?

    You wanted everyone to stop breeding well there ya go....

    EU has nothing to do with what I wrote. We will need to deal with the problem with or with out it, no?

  37. We always knew Canada and Mexico would pick up the slack of the closed US plants. <<<<<<

    So which was it Susie? Did you keep on the band wagon to close our plants knowing our horses would be exported or do want to jump in with John and say it was all a mistake? Come on pick a f....... story you horse "lovers" who sent our horse further to worse can agree on cause this story de jour b.s. is really making me angry......

    The one thing that tips me over the edge of civilized debate and sticking to the issues as opposed to insults is the export thing. It's the one thing I haven't been able to take in this all along.

    If you felt as deeply about the horses as you profess you couldn't have shut the plants here without export laws at least somewhere on the books...

  38. What's your story on that export to slaughter, you know shipping them further to worse you said wouldn't happen and now is?

    Which plea do you want adopt?

    The "we knew all along but did nothing but push our agenda disguised as horse lovers stance of CPA Kathy" or the "it was all a mistake and even though everyone warned us I didn't believe it would actually happen John story"?

    Or are you original enough to have one of your own? As we have seen in the recent past these pleas don't have to make sense to anyone.... so be bold....

  39. rh1 - "The one thing that tips me over the edge of civilized debate and sticking to the issues as opposed to insults is the export thing. It's the one thing I haven't been able to take in this all along."
    And they have the BALLS to now say what's the problem you can still slaughter horses in Mexico or Canada... How many times have we seen that said on the horse forums by the anti slaughter people?! What the hell people We don't WANT horses slaughtered! But I sure as hell know ignorant idiotic WORSE FOR THE HORSES legislation when I see it.
    And by the way people, you want to spout off about the biggest seizers and rescues blah blah blah... How many more RESCUE organizations are going to have to have the horses seized from them to get you to figure out the problem.

    They knew all along they would be exported, or OOPS it was a mistake... Either way that just makes me sick! ooops more horses suffer more...ooops. WTF!?

  40. rh1, if the debate on exports sickens you, where were you when thousands were exported each year that the plants were open? Were you campaigning to stop it? What about the long hauls across the country – same number of miles as the horses going across the borders? Did you try to do something about that? But now, that is the anti-horse argument du jour.

    You also keep forgetting to mention that the worst cruelty and abuse during transport occurred in the trucking within our borders and continues to be within our borders. And yet, the anti-horse folks oppose the slightest change to make the process more humane by opposing the legislation that would ban the double-decker cattle trucks for horse transport. Why is that?

    Ranch Manger, your spinning is great. The comment on slaughter is still available is in rebuttal to people that say they have lost an option and blaming the closing of the plants. Closing the plants has had no impact on the availability of slaughter. That is clearly evidenced in the second highest slaughter counts since 1995. If the availability was impacted, the slaughter counts would have dropped, not increased.

    If you cared about the welfare of horses, you would be fighting to end slaughter. You don’t give a hoot what happens to the horses after they are dumped at the auctions. Just in the past two years since the plants have closed, what has been done to make the process more humane? What was done when the plants were open? Absolutely nothing. The slaughter industry has been under a microscope for years. For years we have had FOIAs (that’s plural) and investigations at the auctions, feedlots, transportation and the actual slaughter. You guys have done nothing except finding better ways to sweep it under the carpet. That speaks volumes.

    You claim we fabricate information. Do you mean like fabricating the drug issue that we have been harping on for years? You guys blasted us saying the meat is safe and how highly regulated horse slaughter is. Well now, boys, looks like we were right again. You folks and our own government swept it under the carpet but the EU stepped up.

    Every despicable lie and every piece of propaganda that your side has been spewing for years is all front and center. The EU isn’t lying and we haven’t been lying. The truth always comes out. It takes years, but eventually, it surfaces.

    BTW- has the attempt to rename the Mustangs “feral” have anything to do with the EU regulations on the 3rd page, second to the last paragraph? If so, you have stooped to new depths to continue slaughtering horses.

  41. Drugs, EU, lies..... The plants here were EU owned. (that's were they got the name BelTex at the Fort Worth plant and remember the foriegn owned companies profiting from killing our horses arguement used by pro horse sites in the past)The EU has had every opportunity to test, inspect, and address any issue they felt necessary all along. They were present all to the goings on from the onset. But it does make good drama now.

    The Humane Transport Act passed and went into effect 2/2002. Cattle pots were to become entirely phased out by 2007. The Humane Transpot Act was made inapplicable when the U.S. plants were closed. As for the abuse at the auctions, I personally have never seen it. I go to quite a few every year. Loose horses at the auctions I do business with go on hay and water upon arrival and remain so until sorted for loading. The sickening things I see at the auctions were always moron induced before the horse got there.

    I was busy riding my own and quite a few other people's horses to give them value other than lunch. I have always felt the way to REALLY end slaughter is to dry up the supply by giving horses other value by riding them, caring for them, raising sane, sound, serviceable animals.

    The responsiblity lies with the owner the day that horse's value drops below killer price. It doesn't matter who is holding title when this happens, you, me, or the federal government we all have the same choices. I will take responsibility for mine. You want the government to take responsibility for yours and everyone esle's.

    I really don't care what you call mustangs. I haven't had the time to troll over the EU page by page or paragraph by paragraph.

    I don't think all horses are equal. I also beleive the more fuglys, Vicki Tobins, Barbara Reeves, John Hollands, and the like we have in horses the further the quality slips into the gutter. Quality is also form to function conformation which does affect the health of the horse not just I don't think he's the right color.

    I care what happens to the horses. I am just not naive enought to believe the same owners who have sent horses to kill for years either through ignorance or purposely will suddenly become enlightened and all will be sunny when slaughter is no longer an option. I believe these no value horses will be treated the same as unwanted pets and that's worse than being meat on the hoof.

    Let me put this in perspective for you Vicki...my son is due to leave for his third tour of duty in the Middle East, one in four women will go to sleep tonight in an abusive relationship, we have a health insurance system raping the public and driving companies to debt, the federal budget deficit is so far into the trillions I don't even want to keep track of it, and I find it a waste Congress has to take time to deal with 100,000 cheap horses which should be cared for by their owners, the horse industry, an animal cruelty statute, or a livestock wellfare agency already in place to do so.

  42. "And yet, the anti-horse folks oppose the slightest change to make the process more humane by opposing the legislation that would ban the double-decker cattle trucks for horse transport. Why is that? "
    First off I am pretty sure none of us here are opposing the transport legislation that says no DD hauling for horses. Secondly, Vicki, You couldn't be farther off when you claim "we" (I am assuming you mean The Back at the Ranch blog folks) Have done nothing to help horses. And to say we or I don't care about horses is a real joke. When you people say that kind of stuff it's just a reminder to me how little you know about horses and real horseman and woman. It also allows those who may be on the fence yet to veiw your total ignorance. Thanks for the help ;)

  43. Geeze Loueeze!!!!! I've been reading this blog and the antihorse responses for a few days. Normally, I wouldn't spend the time here that I would taking out my garbage, but even that has a purpose and I recognize yours.

    The basic issue is: Is human consumption horse slaughter humane to the equidae involved and necessary? You say yes and I say no to both parts. If we can't agree on that, then really there is no purpose in debating any further. Ergo, the reasons for the legislation.

    No ranchmgr, you and your kind have not supported transport (HR305) changes.

    Further, you post (which is fairly nonspecific antihorse, slaughter speak) via post reply to "vicki":

    "And yet, the anti-horse folks oppose the slightest change to make the process more humane by opposing the legislation that would ban the double-decker cattle trucks for horse transport. Why is that? "
    First off I am pretty sure none of us here are opposing the transport legislation that says no DD hauling for horses. """ WELL DUMBO, ...YOU'D BE WRONG (AGAIN AND NOT THE FIRST TIME).""" Secondly, Vicki, You couldn't be farther off when you claim "we" (I am assuming you mean The Back at the Ranch blog folks) Have done nothing to help horses. """ AND YOUR PROOF IS WHAT????""" And to say we or I don't care about horses is a real joke. When you people say that kind of stuff it's just a reminder to me how little you know about horses and real horseman and woman. It also allows those who may be on the fence yet to veiw your total ignorance. Thanks for the help ;)"""WELL, WHEN YOU RESPOND WITH NOTHING BUT TYPE AND OPINION, FAIL TO ADDRESS POINTS ON SLAUGHTER STATISTICS, MISQUOTE J.HOLLAND, FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THE US "BEEF" EXPORT MARKET, BSE, CURRENT, PAST HCHS MARKET STATISTICS, FOIAS AND ESSENTIALLY PAT EACH OTHER ON THE BACK ABOUT HOW PEACHY KEEN AND NECESSARY HCHS IS...YOU DO A DISERVICE TO YOUR POSITION THAT HCHS IS (1) HUMANE, (2) NECESSARY, (3) REGULATED TO INCLUDE MEAT PURITY FOR HUMAN TO CONSUME."""

    In closing, don't you have a townhall meeting to attend to attack the communist, nonAmerican President? I'll get to the schizophrenic post re: to Vicki Tobin later...not to mention the inaccuracies. Essentially I'm here to counter the "waste tank" comments for the intelligent or legislators reading the blog owner sewage....not for the owner, just for discerning readers.

    p.s. Someone who knows you and Dena, etc with all of your FHOTD quips, quotes and terminology says you are nothing but "attention whores". I wish it were that simple. You are way, way less than working girls living on their backs(frankly, I have no problem with them)...you live off the backs of your equines (that I have a problem with). Have a restful day.

  44. Excuse me, rh1, but you are wrong. When the plants were open and the animals were being slaughtered on US soil, it was the responsibility of the USDA to oversee, test and make sure regulations were followed. What do you think the role of the USDA inspectors is? Any animal that is slaughtered for human consumption in the US requires USDA inspectors. It doesn’t matter who owns the plant or if the meat is being consumed here. If it was the EUs responsibility, what were we paying the USDA inspectors to do? Why, when the funding was removed, did the plants concoct their plan to pay for the USDA inspections themselves? Why didn’t they bring EU inspectors in? Get your facts straight.

    I don’t blame the USDA, I blame the Velda’s and Chevideco’s. They have wreaked havoc on the horse industry and we are all to blame for allowing it to happen and continue. We were their doormat and followed the $$ they were waiving in front of everyone. Dallas Crown still owes Kaufman TX $180k in fines. Violation after violation and when we dared to try to get them to pay, they took us to court and wasted our hard earned tax dollars because they didn’t pay any federal tax. We passed a law in IL and had to endure their court challenges for months. All the while, they were busy setting up shop in Canada and telling our courts that the financial hardship was too hard to bear. The CA government didn’t mess around and shut them down within two years of opening. We had to endure them for decades before we could get rid of them.

    Why don’t you ask LeRoy Baker about his fines? That is but one auction and the abuse continues to this day.

  45. Ranch Manager, the YOU was a universal you for slaughter proponents, not you personally. I’m talking about organizations like the AQHA that promote breeding but do nothing to care for the excess horses that are being produced as a result of their quest for fees. I don’t begrudge them making money, they need it to keep the organization running but if they are going to promote breeding and have the majority of horses going to slaughter then they should be involved in a solution. They spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars on lobbying and PR firms to promote slaughter, not to mention PAC. Why not take that money and use it help owners keep their horses or establish funds to help the breeders with their excess? What rescues do they support?

    I agree. There are many pressing issues facing our country. We have several advocates in group, like you, that have children serving our country. That doesn’t mean you don’t try to right the wrongs and do what we can to make our world better. Many of us are involved in the issues you speak of but we don’t post those efforts on blogs about horses.

  46. I'm glad to see John Holland admit that the Anti side made a huge mistake in taking action before considering the consequences of closing the American Slaughter Plants down. That's a good first step towards moving forward to a solution. And in my opinion, better than stating that one lobbied for the closing of the American plants knowing that the horses would go to Mexico and Canada.
    And I'm glad to read his verification of what we have been stating all along - Slaughter is PART of the Equine Industry, and accounts for a very small amount of the Equine population. If we can all agree on that, and with Mr. Holland stating it here I hope we can, perhaps both sides can now agree on a few things. Canada and Mexico are not the place for American horses to travel to, and with the small population that are going to Slaughter, I would hope we could work together on a way to re-open U.S. Plants, and find a more humane method of Slaughter. While I do not agree with Mr. Holland that Slaughter will meet it's demise due to EU regulations, I do feel there's a more humane way to deal with the very small amount of horse who will end up at the plants. Mr. Holland made a very good point, we have no way of knowing what will happen in a foreign country.
    The Anti side felt that when they closed the plants in America, they successfully ended Slaughter, but what they didn't count on was that there was already a plan in place to keep business running as usual. I think we will find the same will be true with the EU regulations.
    While the focus of both sides is to decrease the amount of horses that end up in the plants, the reality is that some will still go, and we need to find the most humane way to transport and Slaughter them. That will not happen in a place anywhere but here.

  47. I said they were entirely knowledgeable of the whole system and free to excercise any quality control tests they felt fit. They were not being duped as you seem to suggest was the point.

    It's the hype and drama I object to.

    I didn't set out to make this a slaughter debate. I was stating what I felt was going on in the horse market. What has been going on in the horse market for years and how it has gotten to where we are. Much as it offends you that cant' be done without discussing slaughter.

    I said when we close the borders we had better have some funding and euthansia stations/slaughter houses (I'm sorry they have such a similarity for me, horses killed in unfamiliar surroundings at the hands of people who would rather not be there) in place.

    Point was I think we should be addressing our human issues. I have lost count the times we have read personal sacrifice stories of how "my horses eat before I do, I work three jobs to feed my horse" stories from pro horse people to elevate that individual above the lowly horse dealers.....I believe that's the same type of thing but let's agree to disagree on that.

  48. Someone who knows you and Dena, etc with all of your FHOTD quips, quotes and terminology says you are nothing but "attention whores". I wish it were that simple. You are way, way less than working girls living on their backs(frankly, I have no problem with them)...you live off the backs of your equines (that I have a problem with). Have a restful day.<<<<<

    I know you have no idea who I am so pull your head out of your conceited paranoid a$$.

    I refer to fugly because I think she is foul mouthed, bitter, vindictive, b****. Obvioulsy she has a problem with reality and her personal relationships. Ridiculing children, widows, and people who honestly know no better to out things any first year 4-h student is bright enough to recognize requires no horse sense or knowledge. You don't have to know Dena or be personally involved with fugly to dislike her..Come to think of it you sound a lot like her?

    The BSE statements are both true.

    I did correct the John Holland reply that was incorrect. I misread the sentence. No one else here has done that in this b.s, now have they?

    Come to think of it what actual fact did you bring to the table? Lot's of insults and name calling but not one fact of your own....did I mention how much you remind me of fugly......

  49. coeurdefer, Hey your right you would have been far more productive using that time to take out your trash. The time you spent spewing ignorance and nastiness all over your key board without actually saying anything usefull should be of great embarassment to you.
    I will have a restfull night, thank you. Hope you do as well.

  50. RH1, math check... The slaughter horses provide .03% of the industry's income, not 3%. That is one third of one tenth of a percent.

    And as to the obvious distortion of what I said about Ensign-Byrd, my only disappointment was that it did not totally destroy the industry.

    I was idealistic back then and had not accepted that this battle will be a long one. Still, in 2007 Ensign-Byrd saved about 20,000 horses and it cost the industry money. I count that as two hits.

    For all his distortions and legendary, awe inspiring stupidity, Ed Butcher did understand that this is a battle of attrition. For the anti-horse side, it is about money and nothing else (spare me the abandoned horse bs), so the battle must be joined with that in mind.

    Anything and everything that sucks a penny of profit out of this industry is music to my ears! Every dollar that a hauler must fork out for gas, every bill from a lawyer, every ticket for transport violations, every fine for polluting, all of it is cumulative.

    And this industry makes itself an easy target because it is, on every front, the most irresponsible I have ever seen. Perhaps you have not listened to the director of NVF admitting they dumped millions of gallons of blood into a lagoon behind the plant and that it destroyed the soil and threatens the river?

    For each of these I hear "ka-ching".

    Nobody knows how much affect the new EU rules will have except that it will cost at least $350 per horse over the present system. That sounds like a huge Vegas slot paying off to my ears! Ding, ding, ding, ding, bong, ding, bong, ding ding ding ....KA CHING!

    And RH1, you miss the whole point when you say they will just buy feeder horses. The key word is "feed". ding ding ding ding KA CHING

    Sorry folks, you may need to consider a cheaper beer in the future.

  51. Rita, you are the queen at spin. You did a great job of twisting John’s words. rh1, almost every paragraph mentions anti-slaughter, liquidation or slaughter. How could not expect a debate on slaughter?

    There is no such thing as humane slaughter for horses. The kill houses have been under a microscope for over 10 years. Are you saying they are that incompetent or is it that they just have no intention of making changes? If someone was attacking your business with valid issues, wouldn’t you make changes to shut them up so they didn’t have anything on you? If there weren’t problems, the FOIAs would have been blank and the investigations would have revealed nothing. And yet, to this day, we are seeing the same inhumane transport violations, feedlot and auction violations. And that’s within our own borders, not in Mexico and Canada.

    Cavel and Natural Valley were state-of-art plants. Read the interviews from the workers at Cavel. It will make you sick on what took place on the kill house floor, including two foals born on the kill floor in 2007. We have pages and pages of violations. They are not going to slow down the lines to make sure the horse is stunned properly or that regulations are followed. Why should they when they have people like you supporting what they are doing? Take a look at the state-of-the-art tank at Cavel on my website. It is a site to behold. Take a look at the piles of entrails, blood in the river and on and on at Natural Valley. They still have a 16 M gallon cesspool of blood in a lagoon and have no idea of how to clean it. In the meantime, the contamination is seeping into the ground doing who knows what to the surrounding communities.

    There is a solution to the “very small amount” of horses that end up at the plants. It is called humane euthanasia and disposal by a renderer if the horse cannot be buried or the owner cannot afford cremation. The cost is the same as one month’s care for a horse. It is called owner responsibility. You know, taking responsibility for a horse the owner chose to buy or breed.

    Has anyone contacted the AVMA or NRA on working a deal to get through the initial period? How about legislation with tax breaks to owners that humanely end their horse’s life? HR 503 or S 727 could surely be amended to include that for one or two years. If they have money for clunker cars, surely they can give a tax credit for a living being. How about state legislation to expand local pounds to include horses for areas with the highest population of breeders? If they can’t adopt them out, euthanize them as they do with dogs and cats. I’m sure most of the breeding is concentrated in certain areas more than others. Let’s find a way to help them. There isn’t anyone on our side that wouldn’t help in finding solutions. They’re out there but you have to want them.

    The regulations are coming in 8 months. What are the breeders doing to prepare? BTW-if the anti-horse folks aren’t successful in renaming the Mustangs, feral, what’s next? Are they going to paint the horses with black and white stripes so they can say they’re zebras?

  52. John If you could move forward you would have seen this comment by RH1 -
    rh 1 said...
    In fairness and the interest of keeping things accurate. I misread Mr. Holland's one in nine statement. He said one in nine horses who die each year die by slaughter. Which makes the total killed 11% of the number of animals dying, not 11% percent of the horse population.

    Where he is getting the figure of a 10% natural death loss in a large animal population annually is a mystery. Using this logic all we have to do is stop breeding any horses for 10 years and they would cease to exist in any form in the US.

    I am also having trouble with Kathy's Regu-Mate residue in slaughtered broodmares causing spontanious abortion in women. Having been involved in training, buying, and selling, not breeding (mostly geldings to boot) I am not all that up on the broodmare aspect of things and the few times I have been associated with Regu-Mate it was to supress cycling. So in my simple country mind Regu-mate residue strong enough in a "broodmare's" meat to cause abortion in a pregnant women eating the meat would make also cause the mare to "abort". Which would make her open and therefore not a broodmare. If Regu-mate is used to bring a mare into heat by using and then stopping, the withdrawal in the mare's system must be significant or she wouldn't be forced into anything by its withdrawal.

    Anyone familiar with Regu-mate uses and effects please feel free to inform or correct me. But until then I am lumpig that statement in with John's 10% percent natural death loss or "where did you come up with that"?

  53. John said -And RH1, you miss the whole point when you say they will just buy feeder horses. The key word is "feed". ding ding ding ding KA CHING "
    People pay to feed out beef all the time and still profit. If a horse was being fed out strictly for meat it would not cost that much to do so for 6 months. I feed beef and could EASILY fatten a horse that is 300 pounds under weight in 6 months for very little money if I chose to. Buying a horse in good flesh right now is cheap, buying one that is skinny is damn near free and often times IS free. Good luck with your "KA CHING" theory. It again just shows a complete lack of knowledge in horses.

  54. ..They still have a 16 M gallon cesspool of blood in a lagoon and have no idea of how to clean it. In the meantime, the contamination is seeping into the ground doing who knows what to the surrounding communities.
    There is a solution to the “very small amount” of horses that end up at the plants. It is called humane euthanasia and disposal by a renderer if the horse cannot be buried or the owner cannot afford cremation...

    I know I'm just a simple country gal who's been on the back of a horse since the day I came home from the hospital. I'm not as enlightened as the experts who've read Black Beauty and hence know everything about horses because I don't talk to dead racehorses - but aren't these lines a bit contradictory?
    Blood is used as fertilizer - I always pour the blood around plants and into the garden when I can - you buy it in stores (dried from blood gotten from slaughter houses). Burying a chemically slaughtered animal leaves very, very bad stuff in the body, which leaches into the ground.
    Please enlighten this dumb country hic, yea wonderous ex-backyard breeders & failed trainers, or even you "I luvs horsies and someday I'm going to get my own Black Beauty" set. What did Barbaro tell you, enrich the pastures or kill the pastures?

  55. Anonymous, a cow that has had bute can never be slaughtered. There is no withdrawal period. It can cause aplastic anemia in humans. And look at the drugs in race horses or horses that are drugged to go through auctions. Since the slaughter camp refused to do anything about the drugs in horses the EU stepped up and they’re doing something. You guys argued and argued that the meat was safe. Wrong again. As John said, the additional cost is music to our ears. Just one more step to ending the slaughter of our horses. You are eating into Velda’s profits. And don’t think for a minute that they’ll let the US into their foreign markets. Open a plant and you won’t have a market to sell to. They own the markets. These foreign countries won’t eat our beef and now that the lies have been exposed and they know what they have been eating, do you think they’re going to trust us after being lied to again?

    Horses have been buried for years and years. There have been no health concerns from euthanasia. That is an old argument with no merit – just one of many in the disinformation campaign being waged by the anti-horse folks.

    I don’t understand your cracks about Black Beauty and Barbaro and what point you were trying to make. The information is coming from veterinarians and those involved in regulating food safety. I suspect you were trying to be cute. What you keep forgetting is that when a fact is passed on from someone that doesn’t own a horse, it doesn’t make the fact wrong. Trying to discredit the poster, won’t change the facts.

    If you prefer to hear the information direct from a director at a slaughter house that was responsible for enforcing the regulations, go to equinewelfarealliance.org and listen the July 29 interview. You can hear it with your own ears.

  56. Bute is not authorized for use in anything but horse and dog. Do people use it? Probably. That's why there are inspectors (you should spend some actual time out of the city and see what really happens). What does a Canadian cattle slaughter house have to do with any discussion here? Please, try to stay on track - I don't have an inside line with Barbaro.
    If you would actually move on and read the other blog entries, you may actually have your questions answered.
    Yes, I joke about your kind. There's the ones like Holland, Fugs, and the bitch that starved a horse I sold her who now heads up an animal rights group. These are the ones who tried to play the game and lost. Because they couldn't make a go of it, no one should be able. They do have the skill of saying just what the witless want to hear. They'll take witless money, no problem.
    I have a problem with people who haven't a clue trying to legislate what I do. I don't (nor does anyone) raise "slaughter" horses. I also won't sell to people like you.
    If you're so concerned, buy these reject horses. Before you idiots came along "saving" anything you could get a story out of and get some money coming in, the process worked well.
    Why are there so many unwanted horses? Because people like Holland & fugs breeding for a bottom end horse and finding idiots to buy them (or, "rescue" them). You mindless wonders created a whole low end market, then crashed it yourselves.
    Those that actually work with animals have tried to educate the witless, but they just hear what makes them feel good. They ruin good horses, breed things that only the best shouldn't be in a bun - and YOU want to run the horse business?
    Give me a break, why don't all those witless wonders join some cult that wipes themselves out? Would save a lot of agony for a lot of horses.
    Sorry if I upset you and don't raise your self-esteem by telling you how wonderful you are - you are an idiot and disgust me, ok?

  57. Anonymous, you are so informed! Natural Valley was turned into a horse slaughter plant. That means they were killing thousands of our horses. That is what it has to do with the discussion.

    John Holland does not breed horses. He rescues them and keeps them for their natural life. Before you libel someone, get your facts straight.

    Thanks for the long post that added nothing to the discussion. No facts, no solutions, nothing but bashing. So very typical.

  58. Hmm, you only hear what you want? Maybe that's the problem. Maybe you should actually get some first hand knowledge on what you discuss, besides the crap put out by the snake oil salesmen.
    Holland no longer breeds because his plugs were ending up filling slaughter trucks and it hurt his feelings. He tried, he failed, now he wants to run the whole business?
    You're an idiot.
    Now I must get back to MY BUSINESS, which is severly hampered by witless idiots. Luckily there are those like the contributers to this blog who will take the time out of their busy schedule to try and educate the witless. Hopefully it isn't to late, but who would have ever thought America would be taken over by idiots?

  59. That is truly hysterical. John breeding horses! I don’t suppose you might have some proof you can share with us.

    Thank you for your enlightening post and giving us a stellar sample of the rules from the anti horse manual on posting. When you can't dispute the information, change the subject, discredit the poster and name call. Never answer a question or offer documentation to support your drivel. And never, under any circumstances, admit you were wrong.

    Very well done. By all means, stick to your day job. You are doing a disservice to your cause. I’ll bet the anti horse folks were even cringing at your post.

  60. When you can't dispute the information, change the subject, discredit the poster and name call. Never answer a question or offer documentation to support your drivel. And never, under any circumstances, admit you were wrong. """

    Gosh sounds exactly like what we say about the over emotional under educated anti-slaughter/anti horse and human people. I guess we had to find something in cmmon sooner or later!
    And if John was breeding my guess is there would be no hard evidence since I'm sure registered stock wasn't necessary.

  61. Vicki, there is an obvious lack of intelligence here. Why waste your time on the wasted?

  62. Vicki, I don't think I spun anything, I'm just glad John Holland admitted what he did. It's a fact that the Slaughter plants did business as usual even after the Plants in America closed. And it's a fact that the Anti Slaughter side didn't see it coming. What did I spin?
    Now the Anti side is excited about the EU regulations, and with all of Mr. Holland's KA-CHING talk, I think once again, we may see the same thing happen. If the information I have read is correct, the regulations do not go into effect until April of 2010. It is now August 2009. That gives those wishing to come up with clean stock more than 180 days.
    And not to bring up a glaring point to anyone, but this could not have happened at a better time. With the economy being what it is, there are a lot of really cheap, or free horses to be had. And many of those horses have not had veterinary care, or worming because the owners simply could not afford it. There is quite a bit of money to be saved by not giving a horse any veterinary care, or worming, as will be done with the new feeder horses, and that is what these will be. How cost effective it will be to simply begin buying or taking these horses in, putting them on pasture, or feeding them hay. The other upside is that there will now be a market for them that will bring more money, as there will obviously be a demand. i believe we've all discused supply and demand quite a few times. Those getting in at the start of this with horses that are clean will no doubt stand to make a better profit. I'm afraid the KA-CHING Mr. Holland is hearing just may be for the horses that will meet that demand. Let's not be silly enough to believe that those countries that have eaten horse meat all these years will stop suddenly. Just as we've discussed a few years back when this was first brought up, this opens up an opportunity for those with the time, and room to plan ahead to meet the demand with horses that are readily available right now at rock bottom prices, or for free.
    Where once it was looked down upon to withhold medication and routine vaccines and worming, it will now actually bring in a profit.
    The Anti side would be well advised to really consider the very real possibility that there is in fact something in place right now, and that there are people quietly purchasing, or taking in free horses that have already not been wormed, vaccinated, or drugged. If you think they are not readily available, you truly have not been paying attention.
    Fool you once, shame on you....Fool you twice, well, shame on you again. But in the end, the horses continue to pay the price for your obvious lack of forethought.

  63. Well Vicki, I'll never be as good as you & your kind at spinning a story and changing the subject. I just wasn't raised to be a con man.
    Don't know how you'd find evidence any unregistered plugs, but I'd like to know Mr. Holland's spin on the wonderous, think it was suppose to be appy, stud he tried breeding. To bad he was to afraid of it to even bother training it.
    I could never write a blog like this, your kind just plain disgust me too much to keep it civil - that's why I should end this now. Maybe you should try to move on also, keep reading - you just might learn something no matter how hard you try not to.
    Just one thing I'd like to see from you miracle number crunchers - in response to an above comment, just how many ET mares did AQHA breeders "rescue" compared to the so called rescues? How many are starving and/or already been processed from each?

  64. Rita, of course you don’t think you spun anything. It’s second nature.

    That’s a great idea, Rita. More cruelty to the horses by denying them meds. That is just great.

    The EU issue is really quite humorous. For as long as I have been at this, your side has been arguing and arguing the meat is safe. And now that we know what we have been saying is true, not one of you has come back to say we were right. The slaughter industry is falling down around you and you still refuse to address the cause of the excess horses and end it. It is truly amazing. You will go to any lengths to keep killing horses. Just amazing.

    BTW-since your side keeps saying the horses going to slaughter are old, ill, crippled and dangerous, how are you going to keep the old, ill and crippled alive for 6 months without meds and how are you going to keep the dangerous from killing each other and the old, ill and crippled? This is going to be great. I can’t wait to see the investigations coming out of the feed lots.

  65. Wow Vicki Talk about spin! And again you are showing your complete ignorance in anything horse related.
    I guess there must be a Third "side" in this and we "back at the ranch" are on it. Because I keep hearing statements like "your side" says the regulations were followed and slaughter was humane, your side argues the meat was safe, your side are anti horse and will find any way to kill them for a buck.... Well I hate to inform you anti slaughter supporters but MY SIDE does not fit that description or believe that crap at all. We just don't agree with your side's dictatorship, inhumane, and selfish way of "fixing" the problems.

  66. Ranch manager, you must not read much beyond this blog. A quick google search on articles/discussions relating to drugs in horses will show you the comments from the anti-horse folks on how the meat is safe because horse slaughter is so highly regulated. Over and over again. Not one person said anything to the contrary. It’s the same with the double decker legislation. They oppose it. Perhaps people like you should speak up more.

    As far as our inhumane solutions, how can you call saving a horse from a brutal, cruel end of life, inhumane? No matter how many solutions and alternatives we provide, if the solution isn’t slaughter, the anti horse folks want no part of it. That is a dictatorship. That is the ultimate selfish stance with no concern for the welfare of the horses.

  67. rh 1 says: "The EU is concerned only with food safety. Humane treatment is not an issue with them."

    Response: If you read the Alberta Horse Welfare Report of 2008, you will see that they are VERY concerned about humane treatment.

  68. Rita says: "With the economy being what it is, there are a lot of really cheap, or free horses to be had. And many of those horses have not had veterinary care, or worming because the owners simply could not afford it."

    Response: How do can be so certain that all of the horses you can pick up "cheap" or "free" weren't given any medications, wormers etc?

  69. Good heavens. The pro-slaughter arguments are now making as much sense as The Birthers. Down is up, and up is down. Forget overbreeding horses, we're overbreeding stupid.

    The whole pro-slaughter / anti-horse argument just a few weeks ago was, "What will we do with all the unwanted horses?"

    Their "unwanted horses" - in that version of Alice in Wonderland - were well cared for horses owned by really smart pro-slaughter folks who fell on hard times or something, but were taking real good care of them till the PETA-run bank foreclosed. These unwanted horses were - we assume - getting vaccines required by law and medications prescribed by their vet for humane and public health reasons up until the stupid pro-horse people started picking on them.

    The EU outed the US slaughter for drugs. The unwanted horse argument is gone. Vanished like a thief in the night.

    The best they can come up with is... actually, I can't figure it out; it moves too fast, like Sarah Palin's resume.

    Just for today it's, "We gonna git us some o' dem free rescue horses, yep, and not give 'em no medicine, nope, so we can make a lot of money killing them and selling them to witless Europeans who can't read."

    Oh, really?

    What's really beautiful is, the more posts on this, the more Google hits on the issue, and the faster our neighbors across the pond will get hip to the what's really going on, and stop buying US horse meat altogether.

    It's naiive to think we can control our trading partners or that a market will always be there. In case you missed the underlying current, the EU's move here might really translate, We don't want US horse meat anymore.

    The controlling nature of the pro-slaughter camp fails to comprehend that you can't control the demand for your product overseas. They still have to WANT to buy it.

    Anybody bought a lot of food from China since the melamine debacle? I didn't think so.

    What's really telling, not one anti-horse minority shill has bothered to address the elephant in the room, the moral issue: What about the ethics of what you have been doing all along, selling meat that can harm people's health?

    Where in the Bible does it say, "Love thy neighbor, but go ahead, sell them tainted food as long as you can get away with it."

  70. If he's down on the truck, down in the manure, and he don't want to move," he said, "or if the
    horse is injured or sick or pregnant, or maybe he's done a split and can't get up- you try to pull him
    up by the tail. Or stick a two- by- four under him, try to pick him up. Or hit him with the shocker.
    There are times we took a boning knife and stuck them in the rectum till they bleed to make them
    get up."
    "If the horse is kicking, how do you know it's not just a muscle reaction?"
    "See, that was my department. I did it so long," he replied. "He'd cry out. Cry and kick. And he'd be
    choking from the blood, still blowing out air, and I'd start skinning the head."

  71. God help you pro slaughter

  72. Rita,

    You are whistling past the graveyard! The EU is not going to take a note from an owner promising "I ain't never had no dang vet even look at ma darn horse". You need to read EC Reg. 504/2008.

    The 180 day quarantine is the good news for the producers! The bad news is that it is just phase one of compliance.

    Read the regulation for EU producers and you will see where it is going; total tracking from birth. That is probably why the USDA tried so hard to push NAIS on horses. With that being dead (for now at least), compliance to full EU standards is not even possible in the US.

    And as to your claim about all the free horses, you should listen to what Henry Skjerven (a former director of Natural Valley Farms) said about that. When I asked him why the NVF plant never slaughtered anywhere near its capacity he said "We couldn't get the horses! If we could get our hands on it we killed it!"

    Listen for yourself.


    It is the program for July 29th of 2009.

    The truth of this is that all the abandoned horse fairy tales and unsubstantiated claims in the world will make no difference now! All the state legislature actions are totally irrelevant. All the spin here is meaningless. All the claims about who I really am and what I really have done with my horses is just shaking your fist at the moon! All the support in the world from wide stance Senators like Larry Craig will do no good now.

    But there is one last chance. Rush off a few more checks to Sue Wallis. Maybe she can get the Montana legislature to pass a resolution demanding that the Europeans eat our tainted horse meat. Then she could fly over there and read her cowboy poetry to them until they agreed to comply!

  73. For your information, being that you don't look into anything that anti slaughter posts, web sites, video's none of it the above is a statement by a horse slaughter house worker from Cavel. You had your chance pro slaughter we were screaming about this for years.

  74. BTW, for the record, almost everything said here about my horses is false. I have sold only one horse in my life and that was when I left for Vietnam and could not find anyone to board it. Three foals have been born here and they are all still here.

    I have never owned an appy, and virtually all the other nonsense here is just tripe. Below is a link to a photo of me and my stud Traveler some years ago. It speaks to why I love to ride stallions! He was like riding lightning, but we rode many a trail behind mares without a single problem.

    We are both a good bit older now, but he is still beautiful and still my best buddy. Plugs hey? I think not.


  75. Nobody ever gives the AQHA credit for trying to limit the number of horses registered:

    June 12 2002, Article # 3638
    The American Quarter Horse Association has eliminated all restrictions regarding the registration of foals produced through embryo transfer as part of an out-of-court settlement with a coalition of breeders. For a couple of years, the AQHA has been fighting a lawsuit that claimed a rule limiting the registration of embryo transfer foals to one per mare per year violated Texas free trade laws. The case went to trial June 3 in Amarillo before District ...


  76. I have 100 horses and you could do a blood test on any of them and not find a drug in their system.

  77. "He'd cry out. Cry and kick. And he'd be
    choking from the blood, still blowing out air, and I'd start skinning the head."

    Care to have another go at that narrative?

    Railed animals are skinned from the hind legs down. It's easier that way since the weight of the hide tends to pull it away from the carcass. Why would start the skinning on the part which will be removed from hanging carcass?

    It also contradicts hung by one leg while still alive as mentioned in the another comment.

    Noone at the AQHA is holding a gun to the majority horse owners (the recreational horseman) "making" them raise and register foals.

    The majority (reacreational horse owners) fought recind the excessive white rule, frozen semen, ai, double dilute horse, and as Blaze mentioned embroyo transfer making it even more possible to point the too many foals registered at AQHA.

    For what's worth which is nothing I know no one in my horse hating bunch thought any of these were a good idea.

  78. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/Hollandtech/General%20Pictures/JohnTravelerSunshine.jpg

    OH dear lord John Learn how to ride...that poor fugly horse is about ready to have his lower jaw ripped off his face while the fool rider has a stupid ass grin on his face!

  79. What you fail to understand is simple " horses are not "Livestock", they are Pets, Companions, Friends, where did you get the idea that they were "livestock".......h

  80. The sticker and the header is the same person," he said. "You move so fast you don't have time
    to wait till a horse bleeds out. You skin him as he bleeds. Sometimes horses' heads are still down
    in the blood, sucking up the same blood from some other horse. 'Cause a horse is so long, his
    nose is down in the blood, blowing bubbles, and he suffocates." "See," he continued, "a job like
    that, is a job of cruelty. You don't have no conscience. All you think about is you making your
    money, you doing your job."

  81. "where did you get the idea that they were "livestock".......h"
    I got the "idea" from ,my State's legal classification. Also from the USDA (federal) classification....
    It's a good idea to keep them livestock as they will be afforded greater legal protections than pets are. I wish you people could understand that!

  82. The FDA classifies them as companion pet same as a dog and cat. Not all horse owners look at their horse like a side of beef. What protection do they get now or years ago when it was discovered the captive bolt don't work on Equines. And they were still cartered off to Mexico to get stabbed in the spine, even when the horse slaughter houses were up and running here. They never should of been slaughtered for food in the first place, they are not food animals. Horse slaughter is a despicable business, and needs to stop. Beautiful horse John, and Kelly your an ass wipe.

  83. Make up your mind Kelly! First you guys said I was afraid of stallions and my horses were "plugs" and now you say I am "ripping his jaw off". If I was standing on the saddle with my arms stretched out you would say it was because I never learned to post!

    He really really wanted to get going and I ride with the gentlest possible bits. Stallions aren't robots like geldings, that is what makes them so much fun. He's retired now, but I still ride him around bareback from time to time.

  84. Anonymous said: "I have 100 horses and you could do a blood test on any of them and not find a drug in their system."

    Response: This is a meaningless statement and you are not fooling the EU. Everyone knows that blood levels don't mean anything. This is why something other than blood is tested to determine residue levels of banned drugs.

  85. rh 1 says: "It also contradicts hung by one leg while still alive as mentioned in the another comment."

    Response: The point is that there is a lack of proper oversight at the horse slaughter houses.

    Testimony before Congress by a USDA vet who was assigned to the horse slaughter houses when they operated in the US indicated that the captive bolt was INHUMANE for horses.

    The captive bolt was invested by a Colorado citizen for cows. A horse's brain is further back than a cow's brain. The AVMA states that a horse's head has to be restrained in the kill box, a protocol that was NEVER implemented or followed by any of the horse slaughter houses. Too much pressure to keep the killing fields going.....Multiple violations plagued the horse slaughter houses when they operated in the US including overflowing tanks, rivers polluted with all kinds of drugs, blood etc. Blood came out of shower spigots and appeared in toilet bowls as far away as 10 miles from one of the horse slaughter plants in Texas. This is one of the reasons former Kaufman mayor Paula Bacon wanted them out and vigorously oppose construction of any horse slaughter houses in the US.

  86. You people complain about "contaminating" the earth by burying horses. Yet, you have no problem giving horses banned substances like bute and sending those horses to slaughter for human consumption. Thus, you have no morals or conscience about sending contaminating horsemeat for humans to eat so their bodies can be "contaminated" by poisons. What do you care? As long as you can get "cheap" and "free" horses, keep them awhile to show they are "fine" and then dupe the Canadians and people who eat the contaminated horsemeat.

    And to fend off any bs like: "I have 100 horses and you could do a blood test on any of them and not find a drug in their system."

    NB (NOTE WELL): The EU and all of us are not STUPID. The Horse conducted a poll. They asked horse owners what they give their horses for pain. The overwhelming response was bute. Eighty (80%) percent of responders, more than 1,000 horse owners, give their horses bute.

    The bottom line is that irresponsible horse owners who sell their horses to slaughter are bloody CHEAP, and don't care that horses are "contaminated" with banned substances and that humans are eating contaminated horsemeat.

    There is no oversight by the USDA/FSIS so irresponsible horse owners take advantage of this lack of oversight and the lack of enforcement of FDA orders.

  87. I live in a state where previously existed one of the three remaining slaughter plants in the U.S. I am thrilled beyond words that it is now closed.

  88. Drugs prohibited for use in horses intended for human consumption

    Ingredient Name: phenylbutazone
    Trade Names: Phenylzone (Schering), Bute Tabs (Vedco), Phenylbute (Phoenix Pharmaceutical)
    Phenylbutazone (commonly referred to as "bute") is currently approved only for oral and injectable use in dogs and horses. Use in horses is limited to use in horses not intended for food. There are currently no approved uses of phenylbutazone in food-producing animals.

    Ingredient Name: acepromazine maleate
    Trade Name: PromAce (Fort Dodge)

    Ingredient Name: boldenone undecylenate
    Trade Name: Equipoise (Fort Dodge)

    Ingredient Name: omeprazole
    Trade Name: GastroGard

    Ingredient Name: ketoprofen
    Trade Name: Ketofen (Fort Dodge)

    Ingredient Name: ivermectin
    Trade Names: EQVALAN (Merial), Zimecterin (Merial), Equell (Pfizer), IverCare (Farnam)

    Ingredient Name: xylaxine HCl
    Trade Names: Anased (Lloyd), Sedazine (Fort Dodge), Xyla-Ject (Phoenix Pharmaceutical)

    Ingredient Name: hyaluronic acid (sodium hyaluronate)
    Trade Names: Hyalovet (Fort Dodge), Hylartin V (Pharmacia & Upjohn), Legend (Bayer Animal Health)

    Ingredient Name: pyrantel tartrate
    Trade Name: Strongid C (Pfizer), Continuex (Farnam), Equi-Aid CW (Equi Aid)

    Ingredient Name: nitrofurazone
    Trade Names: NFZ Wound Dressing (Neogen), Fura-Zone (Neogen)

    Ingredient Name: polysulfated glycosaminoglycan (PSGAG)
    Trade Name: Adequan (Luitpold)

    Ingredient Name: clenbuterol HCl
    Trade Names: Ventipulmin (Boehringer Ingelheim), Aeropulmin (Butler)

    Ingredient Name: tolazoline HCl
    Trade Name: Tolazine (Lloyd)

    Ingredient Name: moxidectin
    Trade Name: Quest (Fort Dodge)

    Ingredient Name: N-butylscopolammonium bromide
    Trade Name: Buscopan (Boehringer Ingelheim)

    Ingredient Name: ponazuril
    Trade Name: Marquis (Bayer Animal Health)

  89. Dear Mr. Ranch Manager,

    Horse slaughter never has been humane and never will be. Did you read the USDA report on the heinous torture, the barbarity of horse slaughter recently obtained under the FOIA?

    Humane euthanasia by a vet, and yes, even a gunshot by an experienced handler is responsible horse ownership. Horses are NOT livestock.

    Horse slaughter is all about money. Supply and Demand. When the slaughterhouses were opened in the U.S., they needed Canada to ship down horses for slaughter to fill the Demand. $$$$$$

    How about you read the well-researched, documented, statistical reports on horse slaughter. The FACTS! The TRUTH. Better you spend your time educating yourself than reading Fugly, AB...

    The slaughter of American horses is coming to an end. The law to ban will be passed and pro-slaughter knows it. It is obvious, as their propaganda FOR horse slaughter is getting more inane, ridiculous...and excuse me, but even verges on whacko. And by pro-slaughter legislators! Oh my!

    You all cannot back up what your mouth and pen put out.

    The anti-horse slaughter faction is grassroots. Historically, grassroots organizing might take longer to win the battle, but they eventually do.
    They know the truth and persevere.

    Respectfully Signed

  90. http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/Hollandtech/General Pictures/

    Since Kelly offered such useful criticism of my riding, I though I would post a few photos of my nephews Ben and Abe riding our "plug" Sara. This was their first time near a horse, but I am sure Kelly can offer some equally useful criticism. Perhaps they were smiling too much?

    Sara's registered name is Star Maker's Serenade. She won quite a few ribbons in New England back in 2000-2002. She was bought by a kid's riding school that went under, and then by an Amish man who drove a nail into her quick and thought she had foundered. He sold her at New Holland with a note that said "good for trips" and a copy of her registration.

    Christy at AC4H got her out of Don Nickerson's kill pen (see photo) with money we and some wonderful ASB folks gave her to save one horse from the last lot before Ensign-Byrd took effect.

    Ensign-Byrd was a disappointment, but Sara was not. She just had a thrush infection and I had her sound within a week (I do my own farrier work).

    Sara loves kids. When my nephews Ben and Abe came it was for the funeral of my older sister last month. They had never touched a horse, but Sara made them feel like real cowboys. They rode her all around the farm bareback. When they left they told their mom that it was the best day of their life!

    But you see, Sara was an "unwanted" horse before she came here. Now she is just family!

  91. Hey John Get over it. Spend less time here and spend some time looking for and hiring someone to give you riding lessons. You keep posting and proving all we think of your horsemanship and lack of eqine knowledge to be true.
    People, if we can't stick to the topic then it's time to move on. The Comments option is below each post to allow you to comment on that post, lets try to use it the way it is intended.

  92. OH by the way Ronnie...it's MRS. Ranch Manager.

  93. Mrs. Ranch, why didn't you jump in when others were posting false information about John? Now that he is defending himself, it's off topic. But you sure managed to get in another jab while saying it's not on topic. Isn't that just typical...

    There are 7 posts of information between the posts on John. Yet, you chose to get in another shot at John and ignore the 7 posts. You had a chance to get the discussion back on topic but chose to focus on John. Why is that?

  94. Sorry Vicki, I don't know that the information posted about John was false or not and i don't care either.

    "There are 7 posts of information between the posts on John. Yet, you chose to get in another shot at John and ignore the 7 posts."

    it's because I didn't see any that pertained to the original blog post. And to be honest I didn't see any that were all that informative to me. John wouldn't get so many shots taken at him if he wasn't such an easy target, he's the one who posted that awful picture not me.

  95. MRS. Ranch Manager says: "People, if we can't stick to the topic then it's time to move on."

    Response: Your CONCRETE thinking betrays you!

    Mr. Holland introduced the congured phrase by anti-horse groups, "unwanted horses", by telling you about his nephews that rode around on the mare saved from the kill pen at New Holland.

    The mannerly mare is also an example that crushes another reason cited by anti-horse folks for the necessity of horse slaughter, "dangerous horses."

    MRS. Ranch Manager: better run.....the dangerous and unwanted horses are comin' to git ya.

  96. Direct quote from Manny the horse killer:

    "I provide a service. People are revolted when I tell them I process horses for a living, but without me there would be thousands of starving horses living on our streets. On that girlie website of yours you wrote how I exploit horses. Wrong. I exploit alcohol. I exploit Burger King. But with horses I provide a service. I mop up. I clean up the mess left by morons who just have to breed their mare. A few years later no one wants the baby anymore, so I come in to mop up. How come you never write about those morons who just have to breed their mare? Every spring I send dozens of mares and new foals to the meat plant. And every spring there are idiots breeding more babies. All of your do right for horses cause they built America is crap. The only way to do right for horses is to stop breeding them."

  97. Hey, it was you folks who posted all the nonsense about my horses behind my back without knowing a single thing. But then that is true of almost everything you post! You just make it up as you go.

    But RM is right about one thing, it is time for me to go. This discussion is a waste of time. The die is cast. Shake your fists at the moon all you want, the end is nigh.

    BTW, this blog is technically backward and needs a rebuild. You can't include figures, links or other media. It won't even support common commands for bold text and italics! It is as outdated as your thinking.

    Otherwise I would go out with a song. You will need to sing it to yourselves....The Doors - "The End".

    Bye folks!

  98. Mrs. Ranch Manager, all 7 posts have to do with culling and the implications. It is the culling that feeds the slaughter pipeline. And it is the culls that are feeding contaminated meat to consumers in other countries.

    The information posted on John is false. There is no proof and was posted to try to discredit John. Not the information he has, but John.

    As with John, this is my last post. You can continue to ignore the problem the culls are creating and not trying to fix the cause. You can ignore the EU regulations and keep culling and sending to slaughter until you no longer can. The quarantine is not going to help you because you still cannot prove the horses in quarantine haven’t had banned substances. Horses that have received banned substances cannot go to slaughter, ever. The quarantine is only the first phase. None of our horses can comply with ultimate compliance.

    So you guys just keep ignoring the information and bashing posters. Take pot shots at us and make fun of us. Do everything except address the cause. The clock is ticking and instead of working with us, just keep ignoring everything. When the clock runs out and you have nothing in place for your culls, nothing to reduce the excess, nothing to care for THEIR horses that they won’t take responsibility for, don’t blame us. There was plenty of warning from the EU. It is their regulations that will end the slaughter of our horses, not anything we’ve done.

    Just think, if you had started working on this when the plants closed two years ago, you’d have the excess under control by now and the EU regs wouldn’t have any impact. Instead, it’s bury your head and keep slaughtering until you no longer can.

    Great plan.

  99. Oh, my goodness, you're still at it here! I don't want to be rude, so I'll try to answer all of you....Vicki, you were first....It's not spin, it's just facts you do not seem to like. It wasn't my idea to have the EU put regulations in place, but I don't disagree. By the way, I respect you for your individual opinion, and hope you can see past your obvious need to lump all of us into a group and see mine. "I" have not said or done most of what you have accused me of, including telling anyone that the horsemeat that has been exported is safe. Since you don't know me, it's probably best not to assume things about me. You could ask me, but i kind of doubt that's going to happen:) Moving on.....When the EU regulations go into place, it stands to reason horses bound for Slaughter for Human consumption will not be medicated. It's not part of my evil master plan to rule the world, it's what will happen to have safe meat for those who wish to consume it. What did you think would happen? It also stands to reason that those who already do not care about their horses will use this as an excuse to deny them medications. You can't open the door and expect to only have the intended results you had hoped for come through. That's exactly what I was commenting on.
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again, and maybe you'll even read and understand it....part of the reason I'm Pro horse is that I work to DECREASE the number of horses going to Slaughter. I do understand that Slaughter is always going to exist, but that doesn't mean I want to see horses that could find homes go there. What you seen unable to grasp is that the EU regulations open up a whole new market, and demand, and that there will be those willing to meet it. And by saving money on medication, vaccines, and wormer, it will be, for those with the room to house those horses, cost effective to get in now, and prepare for it. Again, I did not put on my Simon Sinister cloak and begin to plot, I just saw what was coming a few years ago. If you have been reading along, we have discussed this. I, personally have no plans to enter into the feeder market. I have heard recent rumors that a few of the Auction house owners already have. This may be rumor, but I wouldn't count it out. They do have a ready supply of horses, and can pick out the best and bid them out for themselves, especially now. It would only make sense. I know you probably don't like to hear any of this, but that doesn't make me evil, nor does it make it false. You may want to try to separate spin from facts you do not wish to hear. I think that's how some of your group got the horses from America on trucks to Canada and Mexico in the first place. You don't like the truth, so you call it spin. We're not hiding anything......you just choose not to hear it.

  100. As a vet, it will be very interesting for me to see US horses gain weight without wormer medication (as an example) and be suitable for the meat plants in Canada. It sounds like Animal Control will be busy observing drug-free horses at farms in those states who seek to go this route and will be anticipate that more horses will be confiscated from such owners. When the new EU rules are in place, it will be time for states to pass laws requiring registration of horse owners who want to raise horses for food. Farm owners who raise horses for food will likely see increase in state taxes to hire more Animal Control officers to oversee these owners. Owners will have to tag foals, keep meticulous health records and have frequent visits from vets, something that I am thrilled with because we will get more business. You can bet that vets will be under more pressure to report owners who don't care for their horses properly under this program.

  101. I'm leaving too. Now all you anti horse losers can just flap your jaws at each other. LMAO

  102. whistling past the graveyard? very colorful! One might point out that "you" literally stabbed American horses in the back with your well intentioned but ill thought out plans to end Slaughter, then sought to lay the bloodied knife at the feet of the Pro horse camp in your efforts to lay blame elsewhere.....but back to your comment....
    John, as much as this may shock and amaze you, I have read about the EU regulations, and am well aware that they will require a bit more than a "note from home" stating that the horse is drug free. I am also aware that this is intended to be tracked from birth. What must have slipped right by you is that we on the Pro side actually had quite a few lengthy discussions about this, and the ramifications a few years back. So, it's not huge, big news, and we aren't all that shocked at how this is going to go. And again, if you were reading along, a lot of us think it's a good thing. We just don't see it as the death knell to Slaughter that some of the Anti side seem to feel it will be.
    For one thing, when the EU regulations do go into effect, there will have to be a time frame for people to get into compliance. Those with horses already who have wormed, medicated, and vaccinated them will have to be given a chance to get their certificates in order. I will admit that I am still reading and gathering information, and will try to gather it from as many sources as possible so as not to make an ill informed statement,(you know how those things go, right?), but one of the articles I've read states there may be a time frame of 3 years to get everyone in compliance. There is also talk of a holding area for horses needing re-testing in the beginning.
    But what many on the Anti side seem to be overlooking in their excitement is that right now, today, as we speak, and type, there are in fact people quietly purchasing horses, or taking them in for free, and putting them on pasture, and taking them off wormers, meds, and vaccines. When the April deadline comes, and they are tested, they will, in fact come up drug free. Better than a note from home, and filling a market that will be most likely paying a higher price for the horses as there will be a more limited supply.
    I like the rest of your comment...very dramatic, and full of innuendo! I can appreciate that, being one who loves to write myself:) but for the purpose of something as serious as this, i'll try to stick to what I personally know. I know there are free horses, because I have seen the Ads in my local paper, on the Forums I frequent, and have had phone calls offering them to me. I don't need your proof otherwise, and while I thank you for the link, I can post one to refute that, and we all know how useless a pissing match is.
    For the record, I've never paid too much attention to what you do with your horses, with the exception of your stud. The only reason I knew about him was because he was a Crypt, and people were discussing the health and safety issues of keeping one. I did hear you had him gelded, I think that was a wise decision.
    Your last paragraph was pretty funny. If I'm reading it right, you're suggesting I send money to Sue Wallis so she can get Montana Legislation to pass a resolution to demand that Europeans eat tainted horse meat. Then you'd like her to fly there and read Cowboy Poetry to them until they comply. You don't feel they will comply on the strength of the resolution alone? And you wonder why some on the Pro Side can't really take you seriously:)

  103. Oops, Sorry, Anonymous, I missed you between Vicki and John.....I was simply making a statement that due to the economy, not everyone is providing wormer, meds, and vaccines to their horse. So you are not looking at every horse that is being sold or given away having those in his or her system. A test would determine that.

  104. " there are in fact people quietly purchasing horses, or taking them in for free, and putting them on pasture, and taking them off wormers, meds, and vaccines"

    As a vet, I feel obligated to inform you that horses given wormers etc must not be sent to slaughter in Canada whether it is now or in April 2010. The box warning on the wormer box (again for example) specifically states that this drug is not to be given to horses intended for human consumption. Whoever is engaging in this duplicitous deception, please inform them that these horses are not to be sent to slaughter for human consumption. You should also report these people to law enforcement.

    The plan is for CFIA to test specific organs for banned drugs, compounds etc beginning in April 2010. These tests are very sensitive and specific, meaning that they can detect extremely low levels. CFIA will hold the carcasses until the test results are obtained and verified. If banned drugs are detected, the carcasses will be destroyed.

    You should also realize that Canadians are on this and other sites taking notes!

  105. John, just in case you're still here, and having nothing to do with anything other than one line you posted......my gelding is NOT a robot!!!!!!!!

  106. Where are you going to get all the horses you are going to collect for the quarantine? Even the breeders culls have banned substances. Don’t they try to keep the horses healthy while they are trying to sell them or are they going to sell them with worms and no vacinations? The culls aren’t newly born foals, they aren’t culls until they can’t sell ‘em. How about race horses? None of them can ever go to slaughter. Performing horses, same thing. How about horses that work on the ranch, gonna deny them drugs and make them work in pain or full of worms? What are you going to do when their eyes are impacted with flies because you can’t use fly spray? Going to let them bleed to death or get infected when they have cuts from working? A lot of the slaughter horses were bred and used as non food animals and dumped when they couldn’t do what they were bred to do. Can’t send them to slaughter. What tests, Miss Rita? You need to test organs, how are you going to do that on a live horse? This is better than a soap opera. All the years of saying the horsemeat is safe and are strict regulations and we are all nuts and now you are asking for regulations. Can’t make up your minds, can you.

    Oh, the investigations are going to be worth the price of admission. Somebody should start filming now, A Humane Nation, how to care for equines. Charlie Stenholm and Conrad Burns can narrate. Wallis can come riding in on her horse. Ooops, I forgot she doesn’t have a horse.

  107. Anonymous(vet) - Do wormers work/metabolise differently in cattle than horses? Ivermec (ivermectin) for cattle has a withdrwal time on the label...

  108. This will be my final post. As a vet who upholds the highest standards in terms of the animals I treat, I am disappointed by the duplicitous nature by some owners who feel they can pull a fast one by keeping horses out in the pasture and allowing banned drugs to leave their system. What these low lives don't realize is that drugs never leave an animal's system.

    It angers and saddens me that there are people who don't care about rules and regulations and feel they are above the law. What these people don't seem to understand or feel guilty about is that because drugs remain in animals and therefore the meat, these drugs slowly but surely poison human beings over a long period of time. I wish these people would put themselves in the shoes of those who will be eating contaminated horse meat, meat that escapes detection by the most sophisticated technology, and ask whether they would like to be poisoned over time without their knowledge. For example, bute, the most common drug to treat musculoskeletal injuries in horses, has been shown to be a carcinogen and cause blood element disorders in humans.

    Maybe one poster on this site is correct. The United States is overbreeding stuipity. I can promise that if I find out who is breaking the law, I will push for criminal prosecution. There is no excuse for anyone, stupid or otherwise, to scoff at existing laws and commit such atrocities.

  109. Ranch Manager,

    The point is that ivermectin is now allowed in horses sent to slaughter for human consumption. READ THE SIDE OF THE BOX. Horses are a different species than cattle (if you hadn't noticed).

  110. Ranch Manager,

    Sorry, the post should read: ivermectin is NOT allowed in horses sent to slaughter for human consumption. The Vet

  111. As a vet, it will be very interesting for me to see US horses gain weight without wormer medication (as an example) and be suitable for the meat plants in Canada."

    You aren't a horse vet are you? or is it that you have never heard of alernatives or homeopathic care? Or you are one of those vets that pushes lots of meds....

  112. Wow "Vet" I asked an honest question and got sarcastic bullshit. Thats ok though, I have a real vet for my horses and cattle so I'll ask him next time I see him.

  113. Ranch Manager,
    I practice standard veterinary equine care. I don't feel that "homeopathy" has any role in keeping horses worm-free (make sure you understand that the operating words here are worm-free). The Vet

  114. Ranch Manager:

    The manufacturer of ivermectin did not perform the safety studies in horses. Therefore, the answer to your question is not known.

  115. "The manufacturer of ivermectin did not perform the safety studies in horses. Therefore, the answer to your question is not known."
    Thank you. That makes more sense than "the label says so".

  116. I think many of you are totaly missing the point of the 180 day "quarentine". The EU has stated the 180 day time period is for withdrawal time. They said it not me.
    Your missing another point I made earlier too... This will be my last comment on this post as these comments have little or nothing to do with the post written by RH1.
    Great job as usual RH! I found the post interesting and informative. If it's any consolation I think a few of us did comprehend it.

  117. Ranch Manager:

    You are an indescribable breed. The label does say so! If you were so curious as to why the label says so, all you have had to do is a google search on the manufacturer of ivermectin and READ.

    Do you have a farm? If so, I feel sorry for the animals on your farm. You are so lazy and disinterested about ivermectin that you have to get free information from a vet rather than look it up yourself! This country is in big trouble!

    Given your attitude, I bet your vet assuages your ego but just agreeing with everything you say if he wants to keep your business.

  118. Ranch Manager:

    Once again, as a vet I need to inform you that banned drugs DON'T HAVE A WITHDRAWAL TIME! The 180 day quarantine does NOT apply to banned drugs!

  119. Ranch Mgr,

    The anonymous vet is correct. STFU. Hint: from another (federal veterinarian).

  120. Hey rodeo queens! Ain't nothin' funnier than a dog chasing a parked car, repeatedly!... unless it's a human defending US Equines going to human consumption horse slaughter. You have been debated, fact on point beaten into the ground, rebutted and yet, the stupid just keeps on giving. Sorta like a hornet kiss that doesn't sting, but sure gets annoying like a fly in your kitchen.

    How does Ron White put it? ..."you can't fix stupid!" All the vets in the world can't fix the stupid that is this blog/antihorse site. Face it Ranch Manager (which I absolutely find priceless because you don't OWN it, YOU manage it...what a kick in the pants!) Go buy a paper or book...see what you might find. And no, National Enquirer, Cosmo or Maxim don't count....nor does AQHA Horse Abuse Monthly. But I suspect you are a daily kool-aid subscriber for horse abuse. Your "links" say it all.

  121. BTW.. thankfully you aren't in charge of the Pew or other polling activities, because the wording of your "poll" is a unscientific joke. But I suspect that comment will lost on you just like the issue of bute, wormers, etc.

  122. I think I'm going to bow out here, too, I don't think we'll get anywhere if people aren't actually going to read what we've written....so last post, and I'll try to get everyone in. We'll begin with "Anonymous Vet"....interesting that you don't feel confident enough about your opinion to give your name, but I'm sure you are a vet, why would you lie about it, right? You took the time to quote what I said, but not the time to read it, I suppose. I said the horses are not being medicated, wormed, or vaccinated. So, what should I report that is duplicitous? If the Canadians on here taking notes have the reading comprehension that some of the posters on here have, I have to say I'm a little worried, they'll come away all bassackwards....Hopefully they can understand what's been posted.
    On to Doug C......You're kidding, right? Have you read a paper, logged onto a Forum, gone to a sale? There are more cheap or free horses available now than ever before. Check out any Feedlot and you'll find you have your choice of some very nice horses at some very low prices.
    I think you're missing the point. Don't feel bad, others have, too. With the EU regulations in the future, there will be an incentive to keep horses Med, wormer, and vaccine free to supply the market. Again, it's not my evil plan, it's just something that is going to happen. I'm sure you've seen those recipes for natural fly sprays? I personally use them, as well as fly masks, and can honestly tell you I have not had one case of fly impaction in all my years of horse ownership. It may also surprise you to know that there are horses that can work without drugs. It may sound crazy, but it's true. If you allow them to mature, break them at the proper age, and if you don't overwork them, many can put in a full day's work and be just fine.
    Doug, how do you think the EU is going to determine whether a horse is free of drugs? Perhaps you should take a look at some of the information available before posting again.
    Sweetlillena...you didn't post to me, but I just had to comment that any vet - oh excuse me, Federal Veterinarian who posts to someone to STFU really can't be expected to be taken seriously. Why not post your name, and where you work? I'm sure your clients would be very impressed with you.
    Coeurdefer....You're just funny!
    Have a good time, all, and I hope some of you take the time to read the article that started all of this posting. Please feel free to read some of the newer articles, also.

  123. I am curious as to why in the discussion of ivermectin our advising vet has failed to mention it is the ingredient of choice in many if not most cattle wormers. It is used both in feedlots and cow/calf operations extensively.

    It has a 48 day withdrawl.

  124. The manufacturer of ivermectin did not perform the safety studies in horses.

    Copied from the good Vet's response earlier.

    There is no withdrawl period for horses because no research has been done.

  125. I read the EU documents. The only way you are going to comply with the regulations is to raise horses for slaughter the same way you do cows. That means no racing, no performing, no working and no service. Anything other than being raised as a food animal and the horses won't be accepted. They can't be used for other purposes and then become food. Either they are raised for food or they aren't. Can't have it both ways. If you are going to have non food animals, they require routine medications and many of those are banned for food animals. What don't you understand?

    As the vet said, they are going to test organs. If there are drugs, the carcasses will be disposed of. As many posters have said if they have received a banned drug at any time in their life, they cannot be slaughtered.

  126. "Horse slaughter is a horse's worst nightmare," say a group of vets (Veterinarians for Equine Welfare). It's not just the slaughter but every aspect of it, start to finish. Nor is it humane. As my own equine vet says, If a horse needs to be put down, don't send it to slaughter. Slaughter is NOT euthanasia.

  127. rh1
    "I am curious as to why in the discussion of ivermectin.....It is used both in feedlots and cow/calf operations extensively.

    It has a 48 day withdrawl.

    You think concretely and now show your ignorance and poor reading comprehension.

    And just to complete the story: Guess why the manufacturer of ivermectin did not do the safety studies of this drug in horses?

    rh1: Do yourself a favor and go back to school. You might even learn something.

  128. Oh Mrs. Ranch Mgr. We post true information and you just skip around it and oh yes concerned that it wasn't stated from the horse butcher that they are hung up by their back leg and alive for the butchering process..WHAT DOSE BLOWING BUBBLES IN THE BLOOD MEAN TO YOU....ALIVE MRS. RANCH MGR. WHY DON'T YOU VISIT A HORSE SLAUGHTER PLANT YOURSELF MOUTH

  129. Sinikka and Twyla from the Canadian Coalition Against Slaughter were guests. These two have been IN the Canadian slaughter houses. They have been through the gut piles. They have found more and more horse heads with NO bullet holes or captive bolt marks. They were asked what that means? It means they were not even temporarily stunned. They found small internal organs that were identified as less than a week old. They are killing babies.

    The men in the new facility in Bovary take off their shirts to kill horses. They LIKE the blood splattered on them. They have a glass catwalk over the killing area so the kill truckers and everyone can WATCH!

    They talked to the killers in the slaughter houses and overheard conversations and they REVEL in what they do, hurting and stabbing and killing horses. They LIKE it. Those horse killers are not just soulless deadened beings, they are sick. How can they be any more debase?

    They told of the horses being unloaded. They were not wild and untrained, they were trusting, willing, and easy to handle. They stand for days in deep filth waiting their turn, without food or water. When the blood soaked killers would walk by their pen, the horses in there would all come over to them, reaching out, expecting to be treated fairly and kindly because that is what they have had from people in their past. What a sad and huge betrayal for those animals to be there.


  130. Makes you wonder how ALL those horses survived all those thousands and thousands of years without a VET.

  131. We must work together to develop a humane end of life for American horses. Stop lamenting the end of the inhumane horse slaughter system, It is done. The EU regulations and Americans will see to it. American horse owners are not going to force EU regulations on 9.2 MILLION American horses for those that want to profit on 100,000 in the inhumane horse slaughter system that could end at any time. And even if they try to regulate all 9.2 million American horses, how many would make it to an auction without ever having had an owner designating the horse as not for slaughter? It is absurd to even think that 9.2 million American horse owners will be willing to pay for 'regulations', passports, recording fees (they aren't going to do it for free forever) for our horses which we don't eat.

  132. It makes you wonder why SOME horse owners don't give a crap about their horses, it makes you wonder how you could call yourself pro horse, you are pro greed. Our family always had horses, not one went to slaughter even during the depression. I am glad you are a small percent of horse users and abusers, that think it's ok to butcher a horse alive. They are abused from the day you sell them to a KB or dump them at a feedlot. You are pro animal abuse...Someday pro greed you will have to take responsibility for your horses, you will not have horse slaughter as an option.