“The greatest deterrent
to freedom are men and women of zeal, well-meaning, but
without knowledge or understanding.”
~Justice Louis Brandeis~

"People are so quick to defend their own agendas, but they so often fail to realize we must protect the rights of all if we are to continue to have any rights of our own."
~Jenqu~

Ranch meaning, in general, any real world dwelling probably not involving full care board. Kind of a rural voice of real horse owners, trainers, traders, auction owners, rodeo contractors, etc.. all of us who have taken a verbal beating and called greedy ass hats. Back at the Ranch contributors, moderators, subjects, and so on, are pro-horse, pro-owner, and pro-slaughter.
Back at the Ranch was formed by a group of like minded horse / livestock owners. It is a place for us to try to educate, a place to vent our frustrations with the current equine industry, a place to share humor and snark, and in general try to open the eyes of the public who seem to be anti-agriculture.We do have a section for comments of course, and if you would like to email us you can do so directly or through the contact us form. We like to hear from our readers. I hope you enjoy reading our blog as much as I enjoy managing it.
Sincerely,
Ranch Manager
manager_back_at_the_ranch@yahoo.com

Monday, September 14, 2009

Gee It's Quiet in here...........

*note from RM - This piece was written a while ago by RH2 and I was delayed in getting it posted. I apologize to you rh2 but I also think it was karma. It seems quite appropriate to post at this time. Hope you all enjoy the read.......

Ever since John and Vicki decided to pack up and leave, it's been a little quiet in here.Obviously their followers, well.....followed suit.I have to say I'm a bit disappointed. When John Holland stated in the comment section of the now infamous "Opinion Blog post " the Anti Slaughter's fault in closing the Plants in America, I was not only surprised, but hopeful.I thought we finally had an opening to have a true dialog on where we may go from here. I was impressed with John Holland, and I can honestly say I never would have thought I would say that about him. Here was a man admitting to something that has literally affected a huge population of American horses in a devastating manner. And he was honest. You don't find that accountability much anywhere.
The Anti Slaughter side, for the most part, has tried to spin their culpability in this lack of foresight into ammunition not only against the Pro Horse side, but as further proof that even more Legislation is needed to end Slaughter. They have sidestepped the fact that their actions are what put American Horses in Mexico and Canada, and used the footage of the Inhumane methods by which those horses meet their ends to try to lay blame on the Pro Horse side. Mr. Holland's admission that it was in fact, the Anti Slaughter side's lack of foresight that caused this was, I believe the first time I've read an admission of their guilt.As for Vicki Tobin, she speaks of spin, and one needs only to visit her Website to see why she is so familiar with it.
She lays blame on the Pro Horse side for every bad thing that has happened to American horses, while neatly sidestepping her own part in it.She'll proudly tell you of the battle the Anti Slaughter side has fought to help the horses, while denouncing the Pro horse side for doing nothing. I can't help but wonder where Vicki gathers her information? Or is this opinion spoken as truth....or perhaps spin?I can't speak for all on the Pro Horse side, but I can tell Vicki that I was very active in the battle longer than many on the Anti side, being an actual horse owner myself. And while we parted ways when the Anti faction chose to get the plants closed in America and doom American horses to the journey they must take now to foreign plants, I by no means felt it was "all right" that transport laws were not enforced. Nor was I unaware of the Slaughter issue. I am all for the most humane method of Slaughter possible. And, no, I do not, have not, nor will I ever give in and use the more PC terms others use to make anyone happy. I call it what it is, and deal with the reality.
So, I get a little tired of hearing those on the Anti side preach on about how they are the only ones who have anything invested in this battle....or how someone else so clearly stated...how they feel they have "invented the wheel" where this issue is concerned.Like the Pro Horse side, there are those on the Anti Slaughter side who are working to make things better. I wish we could talk, because I think we could get things done. Unfortunately, these people seem to be in the minority. And they seem almost afraid to reach out. I wonder why that is?We had a chance here to at least have a talk. And talking is the first step. We're all individuals, and although it may be easier to lump us all into a group that some choose to label and hate, it won't get us anywhere
I for one, hope John and Vicki stop back in, and bring their friends. And maybe next time, they can leave their preconceived notions at the gate, and try to just have a conversation on where we can go from here. It may not seem like much of a step, but it may just be the start of a solution we can all live with.
Written by RH2

45 comments:

  1. just one or two things I would like to point out here.. first I am a Pro Horse person... now for the transport problem... I am sure the law says something about horses being transported to slaughter can not be in two decker trailers.. As there is no slaughter here in the US our horses that will end up in slaughter are just being taken either to a holding pen at the border or to a stock yard. They are not taken to slaughter so the law does not apply to them.
    And yes now there is no way we have anyway to control what happens to our horses going to slaughter or how they are put down before slaughter. once the horse crosses the border to another country then we no longer have a thing to say about that horse or how it is handled. Who is going to take the blame for that. Who took that right away from us? How can we fix it? close borders to slaughter bound horses? Horses will still go just a little different way is all. Bring slaughter back to the US and make sure it is done the right way? Yes I think that is what should be done. But I am sure that someone will come on here and tell me what a heartless witch i am. Heartless is someone that does not want to see things done to stop needless suffering of the horses. I am Pro Horse and proud of it. I am there for the horse and yes we need slaughter brought back.. but brought back to be done the right way.

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  2. anynomous, there was legislation being phased in and enforced at the time the U.S. plants were shut down. We mentioned it and a website where more information can be read about it in 41 mustangs....which ran back in late July.

    An APHIS prosecuted violation of this was also mentioned in the blog around that same time frame. That article states Leroy Baker, owner of Sugarcreek Auctions in Ohio was being fined $167,000.00 for violating these same shipment laws.

    here is the paragraph which refers to that law and the websiter where more information can be read about it taken from the blog entry 41 mustangs.....

    The U.S. Department of Agriculture has published a final rule Dec. 7, 2001 that establishes minimum standards to ensure the humane movement of equines to slaughtering facilities by way of commercial transportation. These regulations address food, water and rest provided to animals. Owner and shippers of horses are required to take certain actions in loading and transporting the animals, and they must certify that the commercial transportation meets certain requirements. In addition, the regulations prohibit the commercial transportation to slaughtering facilities of horses considered to be unfit for travel, the use of electric prods and, within five years, the use of double-deck trailers. The number of double-deck trailers has been reduced in the last few years, being replaced with single-deck trailers.
    This was taken from Web site: "http://www.animalagriculture.org/" inaugural issue of The Equine Heath Report which came out in January 2002.
    Even those horrible double deck trailers were going to be phased out by the 2007. This ruling became law in Feb 2002.

    On a personal note the auction I have done business with for many years used floor trailers to ship loose horses from around 2000 until yes, you guessed it 2007 when the U.S. plants closed and there "no slaughter bound horses" in the U.S.. they now use cattle pots. (double deckers)

    You are absolutely correct, this is another direct result of the hard work to stop slaughter.

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  3. Talk about spin. We (pro-horse) are not responsible for horses going to Mexico and Canada. We are not sending our horses to slaughter, it is the anti-horse folks that are sending their horses. When the plants closed, instead of working on solutions, the anti horse folks found a way around the plants closing. That should have ended slaughter but no, they found a way to keep killing horses and that, my friends, speaks volumes. I again ask, what are the anti-horse folks doing besides promoting slaughter? The QHs are leading the trucks to slaughter. What rescue does the AQHA sponsor? What programs have they implemented to prevent half of their 135,000+ per year registrations from going to slaughter? We are working on many programs with individual states as well as the racing industry, rescues and others involved in the horse industry.

    What on my website is spin? Are you saying I fabricated the USDA FOIAs? How about the BLM FOIA and meeting minutes – did I make those up? Are you saying the Animals’ Angels investigations are fabricated? John’s articles are full of facts and figures. Are you saying he made them up? Are you saying Craig Downer and Ginger Kathrens don’t know what they’re talking about? Did Conrad Burns lie to Steve Long? The only page that has opinion is some of the anti-horse propaganda but you can see some of those ridiculous comments on your own blog from posters.

    You keep claiming that if slaughter is brought back to the US it will be humane. How do you arrive at that conclusion since all the FOIAs and current investigations of cruelty and abuse have taken place or are taking place within the US? Isn’t that under our control now? If they can’t control it now and follow regulations and couldn’t control it when the plants were here, exactly how is it going to be fixed? They don’t even want to end the transport in double deckers. Every piece of legislation that benefits the horses, they oppose. If slaughter is so wonderful, why don’t any of your websites have pictures of how humane and pleasant the experience is for the horses?

    Either you are for the welfare of horses or not. If you are for the welfare of horses, then you oppose slaughter and support solutions to help people keep their horses. They earn the money, they make the industry what it is so it is high time you step up for their welfare and quit belly aching about what a great thing it is for a horse to be slaughtered. The plants aren’t coming back and the EU regulations will prohibit the slaughter of the types of horses that have been going to slaughter. What are you going to do about those 100,000 horses? You still have the same problem because you won’t address the cause and fix it.

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  4. for one Vicki... EU regulations will only mean that horses will be bought for feeders now.. just like cattle. Feed for so long then slaughter. It will not end slaughter it will just mean that you will not have the Med's that horses are getting to be part of your "plan" to "end" slaughter because that part is taken care of.

    I do not believe death for anyone or anything is pleasant... so why don't you just leave that word out of it.

    But humane slaughter is something that can be done. A single gun shot will kill a horse and they drop... no pain... I know this because I myself have had to shot many horses for one reason or another. Canada uses this to kill their horses in most of the slaughter houses.

    When I sale a horse then that horse is no longer my responsibility. And If I sale that horse it is because it is UNWANTED by ME... who buy's that horse I don't care.. if they pay for it then it must mean they want it.. what they want it for is up to them..

    Horses are now being starved because people can not afford to take them to sales... oh yes.. stock yards now are charging a fee when you drop the horse off.... sometimes that fee is over $50.00 a head. Now that horse might only bring $25 or $30.00 less then the fee to take the horse to the sale.. plus the gas well.. once again people that are trying to just keep food on the table and a roof over their heads just cant part with that much money when it could feed the kids for even just a few days. So they have cut back on the feed to the horse... or just turn the horse loose... but the cost of vet and putting one down that way is so so out of their price range that is not even a thought.
    So horses are being starved.. turned loose... dropped off in other peoples pastures.. or taken to the dump and shot because there is nothing else that can be done... Why should something be so wasted as the meat of a horse... in the old days.. people and I mean ALL PEOPLE use to eat the horse when it could not work no more... so it was not a waste. Today I can take my horse to the slaughter house and tell them to ... "cut and wrap" and put him in my freezer if I want.
    Or I could just hang him in my barn and do the cut and wrap thing myself. To bad many people do not do this.. would be a good way to cut the food bill. In the old days if someone was in a storm and could not go anymore... they did not try and find some place to put the horse so he would be safe.. they would kill.. gut and get into the horses body to stay warm. Horses were a tool. Nothing more. We have come a long way I would say but you know.. If it every came to the point where it was me or the horse.. Sorry guess i would pick me.

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  5. A horse that has received banned substances cannot enter the food chain. Period. There is no withdrawal period. You can stick them in a feed lot for years and they still can’t go to slaughter. It’s in black and white in the EU regs and also on the FDA site. BTW-how are you going to prove what the stolen horses have ingested or what diseases they carry? Or are you scurrying to find a way around that, as well? So again, I ask, what are you going to do with the 100,000 horses that cannot be sent to slaughter?

    Your argument about starving horses just proves our point. It is the economy and has nothing to do with the availability of slaughter. There is nothing stopping them from sending their horses to slaughter. Just as many horses are being slaughtered as when the plants were open. Same auctions, same kill buyers. If they don’t want to pay the auction $50 why don’t they just give the horse to the KB? After all, if the horse is ‘unwanted’ it has no value and they shouldn’t expect to be paid. The folks that abandon and starve their horses don’t send them to slaughter. How do you explain all the abuse and neglect that was commonplace when the plants were open? In fact, the largest abuse and neglect case in US history took place in 2005 when all three plants were fully operational.

    I would hardly call the derby winner a tool. The racing industry brings in billions and the people are paying to see the horses. When their careers are over, they deserve to be retired with the money THEY earned. Horses serve many purposes but when the anti-folks are done using them for what they were bred and raised for, all of a sudden, they are a tool. Sorry, but all people didn’t eat horse meat. If there was a market here and a buck to be made, it wouldn’t have all been shipped overseas. In the 70s, during the beef boycott, horse meat rotted in the stores because nobody would buy it. Another lame argument.

    Excuse after excuse. If you can’t afford to humanely euthanize and dispose of a horse, you can’t afford to own one. They are expensive animals but we all know that the majority of horses going to slaughter are not those belonging to the folks that own one or two horses. We all know where the excess is coming from and until you address that and fix it, you will continue to have excess horses that will now not be eligible for slaughter.

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  6. So Vicki I was wondering what you thought of the post before this one titled Number 184?

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  7. Vicki...
    Well I am not sure what you have read but after 6 months horses can go to slaughter if tested good... and well.. as there has never been any testing done on med's for horses there is no way to know the time needed for it to work its way out of the system.. but think on it.. if it worked and stayed in the system then why would you have to keep giving it to them.. because it does not stay in the system.
    Many people do call the KB to come get there horses.. other people do not know who to call so they try and give them away.. and why is it that WE or I have to find something to do with the 100,000 unwanted horses????? You anti's are the ones that closed the slaughter houses down.. YOU find some place to put them... I my self know the KB number and will call if I need him.
    now think about this.. (if you can find that part of your brain that thinks)... you put 100,000 horses in the ground that have been euthanize by a vet you then put all that deadly toxin in the ground.. in the water... in your plants you grow... oooh ya that's just want we need to do.. you bet.. yap.

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  8. Vicki, I just get such a kick out of you trying to take over the Pro horse name. It really does get more than a little confusinig when reading posts, though, because for all intents and purpose, we have been the Pro horse side for some time now. Can't you think of something to call yourselves? Anti Slaughter is still a pretty good name, why not just stick with that one?
    Anyhow, I'm just going to take a wild guess, and say there's not much of a chance of a civil discussion here?
    The spin referred to is the continual effort by the Anti side to blame the Pro horse side for not doing anything for the welfare of the American horses. That is just not true. The fact is, we differ on the Slaughter issue. Otherwise, we have worked as hard, on Equine welfare issues as the Anti Slaughter side has. In some cases, longer and harder. The Pro horse Anti Slaughter split occurred when the Anti side decided it would be a good idea to get the U.S. plants closed down. Up until then, many of us actually worked side by side.
    Instead of posting the same words over and over again, why not try to have a conversation here?

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  9. Anonymous, why don't you identify yourself? Are you a KB or related to VanDamme?

    There is no six month quarantine for banned substances. If a horse has received a banned substance they cannot enter the food chain. There is no withdrawal period. Why are you trying to blame the pro horse folks? This has nothing to do with the plants shutting down. That is the EU commission and the FDA. You can try to talk your way around it but if a horse a received any of the banned substances, they cannot ever be slaughtered for human consumption. One of the banned substances is bute and we all know that anyone that takes an ounce of care with their horse has given their horse bute at some point. Bute is a carcinogen and can cause aplastic anemia in humans.

    Again, when you can’t send them to slaughter any longer, what are you going to do with them? Why do the anti horse folks always try to find ways around the regulations and keep blaming everyone but who is to blame? And you say you want to bring slaughter back on US soil and regulate it but you are already trying to find a way not to follow the regulations. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking and you have no plans or solutions. You can argue about the regulations until you’re blue in the face but that isn’t helping you with the problem.

    Although there are no environmental issues with the hundreds of thousands of horses that are buried every year, if you are worried about the environment, call a renderer and your problems is solved. I’m sure they would appreciate the business. BTW-why are you worried about the environment but you aren’t worried about the humans that are eating the toxic meat? Another lame argument.

    I can’t wait to see the investigations coming out of the feedlots. They will be a new low in abuse and cruelty. If horses are sick, meds will be withheld so the quarantine doesn’t start again. Injured horses forced to stand in feedlots for six months, sick horses, diseased horses, etc. All that so you can get $300 to dump your horse. Welfare at its finest.

    Ranch Manager, I haven’t read the post – I only catch these when they hit the google alerts. Do you have a link?

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  10. Ranch Manager, I haven’t read the post – I only catch these when they hit the google alerts. Do you have a link?

    Well, Vicki, that certainly explains a lot of things......
    One of the main voices of the "pro-horse" movement has no interest in any other horse industry issues....
    Okay.....I'll play nice and not make all the comments I could.....Here's the link http://backattheranch1.blogspot.com ... just scroll down to the entry posted imediately before the one you are commenting on.....

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  11. They don’t even want to end the transport in double deckers.
    <<<<<<<<<<

    Vicki, pay attention....please allow others consideration of at least reading what has been written


    The U.S. Department of Agriculture has published a final rule Dec. 7, 2001 that establishes minimum standards to ensure the humane movement of equines to slaughtering facilities by way of commercial transportation. These regulations address food, water and rest provided to animals. Owner and shippers of horses are required to take certain actions in loading and transporting the animals, and they must certify that the commercial transportation meets certain requirements. In addition, the regulations prohibit the commercial transportation to slaughtering facilities of horses considered to be unfit for travel, the use of electric prods and, within five years, the use of double-deck trailers. The number of double-deck trailers has been reduced in the last few years, being replaced with single-deck trailers.
    This was taken from Web site: "http://www.animalagriculture.org/" inaugural issue of The Equine Heath Report which came out in January 2002.
    Even those horrible double deck trailers were going to be phased out by the 2007. This ruling became law in Feb 2002.

    Since the U.S. now has no slaughter facilities, this legislation is now irrelevent.

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  12. Vicki, Where do you get your information? I have 11 horses. I can honestly tell you that not 1 of them has ever been given Bute. They are all in excellent health, and are all well cared for. We've owned them for the better part of their lives, so yes, there is a miniscule chance that they may have been given it in those infant years, but I don't think they have. You really shouldn't make statements like that one and expect it to be taken as fact. Many horses lead lives sound and healthy, and, I would guess, like mine, do not require Bute.

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  13. Vicki.... What the hell!? What do you have your google alert set for? Anything with your name in it? How sad that you have missed so many really good posts because of that. That must be why you don't seem to be able to learn, you are like a broken record that still spins. We are here to talk about the wrongs in our industry NOT to just talk about slaughter and if you kept up with the other posts you just might learn some things. I think I've asked you this before and never got an answer (?) What is your involvement in the horse world OTHER THAN the slaughter issue?
    Here's the link you asked for.
    http://backattheranch1.blogspot.com/2009/09/number-184.html

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  14. Vicki, You are responsible for the American horses going to foreign countries. Once the plants closed in America, they had nowhere else to go. Your lack of foresight in having no back up plan in place was your downfall. You can blame the Pro horse side all you want, but you should have known what was going to happen. Believing that the excess horses would be absorbed into the Equine community was short sighted and wishful thinking. I, too was impressed that John Holland had the guts to admit the Anti Slaughter side's culpability in this. You will not be able to move forward until you recognize what your part in this is.
    Those of us on the Pro horse side tried to warn you that the plants would remain open, and that the horses would simply move across the borders, but you wouldn't listen.
    There's a recurring lesson to be learned, but you don't seem to want to learn it. If you will only listen, and try to work with those of us who in fact DO care abut the welfare of the horse, and DO work hard on issues that will decrease the numbers of horses going to Slaughter, we can make a difference.
    Instead, you choose to throw out the same arguments, post half truths, and believe what you want, no mater what the facts are to the contrary.
    Your comments that it is an either or issue make it seem that you cannot view the issue clearly. I have not met 1 person on the Pro horse side who does not in fact own a horse. We have a full understanding of all of the issues that affect us. Yes, we can be concerned with Equine welfare, work for the betterment of the ndustry, and ralize that Slaughter is going to exist. In your eyes, this is not possible. That does not mean your view is correct. It's just your opinion.
    The same goes for your opinion of the AQHA. Yes, many horses going to Slaughter are stock type horses. That does not mean they are all Quarter horses. But you will continue to push your opinion that the AQHA is breeding for Slaughter. Even though it makes no sense to do that, you continue to make the statement. You continue to say that the Pro horse side supports Slaughter, and this is not true. We don't support it any more than we support any other end of life choice. This is what is meant by your use of spin. You also continue to ask what "we" are going to do about the 100,000 horses that will go to Slaughter. You fail to understand that each horse owner is ultimately responsible for the decisions regarding their horse. There are many opportunities along the way for that horse, and our job is to provide for as many more as we can. To remove one of the options is not going to help anyone. To remove the rights of horse owners has obviously not helped, either.
    Your argument stating that if you cannot afford to Euthanize your horse you cannot afford to own one is one that you have no right to make. If a horse owner chooses to sell a horse to recoup their financial investment, that is entirely their choice, and their right. The "Slaughter Pipeline" is just as easily the "Re-homing Pipeline". It's just a matter of how hard we work, and how many opportunities we can afford the horses along the way. The fine line we walk is the one between affording opportunity and offering help, and infringing upon the rights of those who own the horses.
    I would suggest you take time to read some of what is written on here. You obviously find your way to the Slaughter related articles, why not read some of the other ones?
    As a horse owner, you surely have an interest in some of the other issues we have been trying in vain to discuss here?
    And I have been rude in not asking you about your horses. Do you operate a Rescue, or are you a private owner? Do you trail ride, have your horses for companionship, or show? I'm going to take a wild guess and figure you're not into Quarter horses?:)

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  15. I have 30 horses.. AQHA I breed saddle horses that can go anywhere and do anything. Very well bred horses with brains and looks.
    I do not give my horses butte and I worm twice a year. My horses are fat with good coats.
    But if by chance they end up in the slaughter pipe line I have med. records to show when.. what kind .. and how much med's they have been given from the time they are born till the time I sale them.
    There is no place to send 100,000 unwanted horses so I fear that many will be put to death right away. So much wast. I think that ALL unwanted horses should go to the slaughter and the meat used to feed our hungry here at home. the meat is some of the best you could ever eat.. and would help with the starving homeless we have right here.

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  16. RH1, excellent point. If you limit your scope of interest to the Slaughter issue, of course you aren't able to have any discussion, or have any input on any discussions on the myriad of issues that may contribute to horses ending up in a situation where they may enter the infamous "Slaughter Pipeline" (another favorite discussion of the Anti side). Why not open your eyes and minds to what is going on in the world?

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  17. Good one, anonymous. So you say a law was passed in 2001. Excellent. Care to explain the 10 months of abuse and cruelty from January 1, 2005 to November 17, 2005? 906 Pages of the most horrific cruelty I’ve ever seen. That was 4 years after the law was passed and is but one of the many FOIAs that have been published. We had Henry Skjerven, one of the directors from Natural Valley on our radio program on July 29. He stated that they stopped the double deckers last year because CA doesn’t allow them. That’s 7 years after the law was passed and 2 years after the double decker ban for the last leg of transport to slaughter went into effect in December, 2006. So that means that in 8 years, they still can’t get it right. How many more years do they need?

    So tell us again how well regulated the transport is.

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  18. The laws are no longer enforceable. No slaughter bound horses in the U.S. remember?
    Was a big concern of all of the antihorse people before the plants closed remember? When they cross the borders the U.S. law does not apply. California has banned slaughter horse shipment supposedly since 1998. Remember California the shining example of how well the national slaughter ban would work? So exactly what is the point you are trying to make by bringing up a 2009 interview with a Canadain plant manager mentioning California?

    Your totally slaughter focused existance has robbed me of any ability to take you seriously. You had to ask for a "link" to the blog right below the one you are beating yourself up to comment on, I have serious reservations about your ability to comprehend or relay any information accurately.

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  19. vicki said "Good one, anonymous. So you say a law was passed in 2001. Excellent. Care to explain the 10 months of abuse and cruelty from January 1, 2005 to November 17, 2005?"
    UM .... that really is kind of silly. I mean isn't murder, rape, theft, etc... all illegal? Care to explain how all of those things are still happening? Speeding in your car....illegal, care to explain all the speeding tickets given out? Vicki, You really are brilliant you know. OH and just in case you don't get sarcasm.....that was it.

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  20. Ranch Manager, very good point. There are a lot of things that we have laws against. People continue to break those laws. It's an unfortunate fact of life. There will always be that small population who will just not get it no matter how many laws are passed, and no matter what we say. The solution is never to punish everyone. That has been the message of the Pro horse side all along. Did we know that there were transport violations? Of course we did. Many of us were working very hard to get the laws enforced better. We didn't see closing the plants as the solution, but we were working just the same. The Anti Slaughter view of Slaughter being an outlet for those who are greed driven has nothing to do with it's purpose in the Equine Industry. And it really has nothing to do with those who will continue to break the laws that are on the books. When the Anti Slaughter side is unable to separate these facts from their opinions, they are unable to work towards common sense solutions. I completely understand their frustration at the complete failure of their plan to get the plants closed in America. They have to blame someone for their lack of forethought and understanding, why not the Pro horse side? But laying blame will not stop them from making the same mistakes over and over again. That is where my concern lies, and that is why I continue to try to opne a dialogue with them. If you listen to them talk about the transport legislation they wish to have passed, HR503, or the EU regulations, it's clear that their failed efforts on behalf of the American horses have taught them nothing. It appears that as long as they can find someone else to point the finger at, they will continue on as they have, and the horses in America will pay the price.

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  21. Wrong, anonymous. When horses are in transit IN the US, they fall under US law. If they leave the US in DDs, they are violating the law. The Canadian director did not even mention CA, nor did I. He was talking about the horses coming into his country for slaughter from the US. They stopped the DDs.

    You are changing the subject. You posted the 2001 law and said everything was fine. You are ignoring the fact that since 2001, the violations continue. I cannot respond to everyone’s comments in one post. Interesting that you say I focus on slaughter. The drug, transport and cruelty issues are all related to slaughter. If slaughter didn’t exist, you wouldn’t be discussing them.

    Ranch manager, I thought this discussion was about horses. If you want to change the subject to other laws that are broken, not pertaining to horses, shouldn’t you start another blog?. And you are brilliant, as well. We are well aware of the anti-horse tactic of changing the subject. But I give you credit, usually it is abortion. So in your entire post, you did not address the violations that continue to occur since the 2001 law and thus, avoided addressing the issue. Very good, ranch manager.

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  22. Anonymous, sorry, by CA I meant Canada.

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  23. (Ranch manager, I thought this discussion was about horses.)
    Did you read the post? This one was more about people.
    No other blog necessary, it was an example. Even you aren't stupid enough to have missed that are you? If so I believe Rita clarified it in her comment. All I can say about the rest of your comment is that you have the sides switched around....you are describing most of the anti-slaughter people I have had the dubious pleasure of meeting on line.
    You stil have not answered my question. What is your involvement in horses other than the slaughter issue.

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  24. You can try to discredit posters all you want. Whether they own or horse or not does not make information credible or not. My family owns a farm. They raise livestock and crops and got me involved in the slaughter issue. All of their horses work the farm and when they can no longer work, they are retired, not slaughtered. A few have been sold over the years but to private buyers and they keep track of them. After they discovered the dirty little secret of slaughter, they make sure they retain the right to take the horse back. They, like any responsible horse owner, realize the horses have helped them earn a living. If you are trying to find out if I currently own a horse, the answer is no. I do not have the property I need and would not trust stabling my horse off my property. I sponsor two rescued horses, I support Old Friends, I work on rescues, adoptions, fundraising and recently became involved in the wild Mustang efforts. If there is an issue that I am unfamiliar with, I have hundreds and hundreds of people to call in the industry - rescues, vets, trainers, ranchers & farmers, race tracks personnel, race horse owners, jockeys, trainers, individual horse owners, a few breeders, two breed associations, a hauler and one kill buyer. You dismiss everyone that doesn’t share your views whether they are in the industry or not. As an example, the anti-horse folks will only quote the AVMA but totally ignore the VEW that has renowned AVMA vets.

    Is there anything else you’d like to know?

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  25. You are unbelievably defensive vicki. I do agree with not owning horses that you can't keep at your own place, if I didn't have my acreage I wouldn't own any either.
    As far as the comment about VEW, I generally stick with credible sources for information. The AVMA and AAEP have been around for many years and are certified organizations. VEW can't even take the time to update their own web site (important legislations were last updated in January of 08) It appears they have 11 vets in support of them....11. Sorry they have not proven themselves to be a credible source of information.
    As for your list of resources, we know that there are pro horse and anti slaughter people in every aspect of the industry we also know that there are emotion driven factually impaired people in every aspect of the industry. I could spout of the same resources and then some. So you might say I am unimpressed.

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  26. Ranch manger, you asked me what my involvement was. You didn’t ask me to impress you so I’m not sure why you had to throw that in. You asked and I answered. I am not out to impress anyone nor am I looking for recognition. Most of what I do is behind the scenes. It’s not on my website and I don’t post it on blogs. Many of us do research and when it’s published, we don’t care who releases the info or whose name is on it. Nobody is out to take credit and maybe that’s the difference. We don’t get paid for what we’re doing. We do it because we feel it is what’s right.

    Yes, I was on the defensive because every time one of us says we currently don’t own a horse, without fail, the next comment is then you don’t have any right to be involved or you don’t know what you’re talking about. I was merely pointing out that owning a horse does not mean they are knowledgeable, especially on horse slaughter. There are still owners that don’t know it exists and what’s even more mind boggling is there are congressmen and senators that think a ban was passed. They’re the ones that would be voting on the darn bills and don’t know…

    The VEWs white paper on the captive bolt is exemplary and agrees with the AVMA that is should be used for emergency purposes. The anti-horse groups have twisted the study and continually state that it is an accepted form of euthanasia. First, the bolt does not kill, it stuns so it is not euthanasia. Second, if you read the AVMA study nowhere does it state that it is acceptable for mass slaughter. The study was done in a controlled environment, with horses as secondary and the bolt was administered by vets. That in no way, shape or form deems the bolt acceptable in slaughter houses. Even Mr. Anti-horse himself and current AQHA lobbyist, Conrad Burns has stated the bolt was not appropriate for horses. They are taking a study that was by vets, for vets and twisting it’s usage to suit their purposes. If you read the AVMA brochures and literature, they state a horse’s life should be ended by euthanasia administered by a vet.

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  27. OK here we go... this is the Warning label on Zimecterin .... note.... says not one thing about it not to be used in horses intended for food... just says.... NOT FOR USE IN HUMANS...... so now what are you ANTI's going to use for your anti slaughter mith?

    Doesn't your horse deserve the most comprehensive parasite control? There are more than 40 species of equine parasites1--and ZIMECTERIN(R) Gold (ivermectin/praziquantel) is approved to treat and control 47 species and stages--more than any other brand.2,3 Plus all ZIMECTERIN Brand products are backed by a 100% Product Satisfaction Guarantee.

    Warning: Not for use in humans. Keep this and all drugs out of reach of children. In horses there have been rare reports of swelling and irritation of the mouth, lips, and tongue following administration of ZIMECTERIN Gold. These reactions have been transitory in nature. Do not use in other animal species as severe adverse reactions, including fatalities in dogs, may result.

    * Anoplocephala perfoliata
    1 Yazwinski TA, Powell J, Jones S. Internal parasites of the horse. University of Arkansas Cooperative Extension Service. FSA3096-PD-1-05N
    2 Based on data provided on the ZIMECTERIN Gold label.
    3 Based on data provided in FDA Freedom of Information summaries.

    (R)ZIMECTERIN is a registered trademark of Merial. (C)2009 Merial Limited. Duluth, GA. All rights reserved. EQUIZIM930

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  28. And what does bute say on the label?

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  29. Ya know vicki.. i just dont know waht bute says on the label.. guess i will have to check it out.. but you see I DONT USE BUTE.. so well guess i am not thte one to ask.

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  30. Vicki.... This is what I use now as it is safe for horses that MIGHT be used for food... and it is better for the horse then Bute is.. so tell me.. how long before every horse owner is using this? and then what are you going to say.

    alternatives to Bute with proven clinical efficacy and fewer adverse effects are available and should be considered. McConnico suggested substituting firocoxib (a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug that targets cyclooxygenase-2, without hindering reparative enzymes) for Bute, as she says it is safer and equally effective.

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  31. Anonymous, kudos to you for keeping up the image of the anti-horse folks twising and lying to suit your purposes.

    I just went to the ZIMECTERIN website and you managed to copy and paste everything EXCEPT one small detail. READ THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE WARNING. This is straight from the drug company's website: http://zimecteringold.horse.com/pdfs/label.pdf

    WARNING
    Do not use in horses intended for food
    purposes. Not for use in humans. Keep this
    and all drugs out of reach of children.
    Refrain from smoking and eating when
    handling. Wash hands after use. Avoid contact
    with eyes. The Material Safety Data Sheet
    (MSDS) contains more detailed occupational
    safety information. To report adverse
    reactions in users, to obtain more information,
    or to obtain a MSDS, contact Merial at 1-888-
    637-4251.

    Curious how you missed that...

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  32. You know vicki.. I might have missed it.. BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THERE... That is copy and pasted... just as it was on the web site., So wonder how old your info is???????? mine came out in the new Horsemen.

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  33. Ok Vicki.. I went and looked... I guess your looking at the OLD Zimecterin... The NEW one is
    ZIMECTERIN GOLD.... and the only warning is the one that is copy and pasted... CHECK IT OUT... dang sucks to be WRONG.. dont it.

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  34. Yeah, it sucks to be wrong, Anon. Look at the link I posted. Read slowly - it IS zimecteringold. I think the drug company would know better than horsemen. They produce the drug.

    Apology accepted.

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  35. OK vicki and anonymous.... it dont matter what any of them say... 6 months in a feed lot and they can go to the slaughter house.. IT DOES NOT MATTER....
    so get off the pissing match...


    J Doe.. Montana

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  36. J. Doe. WRONG. A horse that has received a banned substance cannot enter the food chain. There is no withdrawal period. Those are the EU regulations and the FDA regulations.

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  37. WRONG VICKI..... VERY VERY WRONG....


    CHICAGO, (EWA) – The European Union (EU) and Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) have announced that the rules on slaughtering horses for human consumption are about to change radically due to concerns regarding contaminated horse meat.



    The new EU rules will become effective in April 2010, requiring that either slaughtered animals have complete health records showing they have not received banned substances OR a 180 day quarantine for the horses. Claude Boissonnealut, head of the CFIAs red meat programs, has indicated that Canada will likely abide by the 180 day quarantine, as mandated by the EU.

    you see the OR in there vicki.... OR.... 180 days and the horse can go for slaughter... so horses will be sold to go to feed lots for 6 months and then slaughter .... will not stop slaughter but i am thinking that horse meat will go up in price... feedlot.. or feeders.. may go down in prices.. but it will still go on.

    SO STOP YOUR PISSING MATCH.

    J Doe

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  38. J. Doe, John and I wrote that press release - we are the EWA. We wrote the release before we had the letter from the EU commission when the news first broke. The 180 day quarantine is for horses that have not received banned substances. If they have received banned substances they can NEVER enter the food chain. That is only phase 1 of the regulations and is in lieu of full health papers. Within three years, all horses will have passports (or something similiar) to prove chain of ownership and complete health records from birth.

    If you go to the EWA site, to Howling Ridge Radio and listen to the July 29 program, you will hear it straight from the mouth of a director of Natural Valley in Canada. Our release was based on his comments and initial comments from the head of the red meats division at CFIA. If you read the EU commission letter on my website or the EWA website, you will see in black and white that horses that have banned substances are prohibited from entering the food chain. This is also the policy of the FDA.

    Again, apology accepted.

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  39. Come April there will be a turn around, anti horse aka pro slaughtr. You will have to take responsibility for your horses. Like the majority of horse owners. You are a very small percent. Horse were sent to Mexico and Canada for slaughter when our plants were still open. Go look at the reports, how many went to Cavel, how many went to Dallas Crown and how many went over the boarder,..Its right there in black and white, how many culls you let get stabbed in the spine, how many you let get hit with a captive bolt that don't work on equines. They wouldn't take the time and care to shoot a horse in the head. We have been screaming about this for years and you did nothing, you still do nothing but whine.

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  40. LIN..... all you ANTI HORSE/Slaughter people will soon figure out that horses will soon go to feedlots. and some will go to mexico were there will be some slaughter houses that will slaughter without feedlot layover... YOU have not stopped slaughter... you just make it to where the horses will either go to a worse fate in mexico or be put in feedlots and fed so they are nice and fat before slaughter. It will still all happen.. just not so fast in some cases.. and may will die in feedlots because no med's will be given.
    YOU DID SO GOOD..PAT YOUR SELF ON THE BACK..

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  41. oh news for you Anonymoass, they are in feedlots....take a look at Sheldon Montana the biggest one in the United States it holds 1,800 horses at one time. You can just drop them off, and get a couple of hundred bucks. They were sending horses to Mexico to get stabbed in the spine till they dropped, when Dallas Crown and Cavel were still open. They send more down there than anywhere else. Go to this site and read all about it. http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/.You and your kind did this and are still overbreeding and sending your cast offs to a horrific death. Why don't you amit your wrong and help stop this despeciable business.

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  42. correction Shelby take a look at them 2 to 10 years old.

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  43. Lin.... you so need to get off the internet and take a look with your own eyes and stop reading things that people want you to read that are so untruths. First.. Sheldon is a layover for horses going to Canada. yes it is a feedlot.. but not used at a feedlot per say a place to put a horses to gain weight. or to wait out its 120 days to slaughter. OH yes it will happen.. you can bet on that. I am even thinking on putting a feedlot in for horses here. but now when the thin horses come into the sale.. they will go to feedlots to fatten up. And some will still go to Mexico as some SH will still kill without the 120 day layover... but you know what the good thing is.... NO WASTE... the horse will have a use in death as well as life.

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  44. No Anonymoass,go to the animal angel's web site, look at the investigations, yes use your internet skill and READ. Shelby Montana, is the biggest. There are feelots all over the US. Taking in horses fattening them up for slaughter and they have been doing it on a large scale for years. They take foals too and wait till they are 5 months old give or take and then they go. Feedlots are nothing new. It's a place where you can drop your over bred horses aka unwanted. They are being butchered alive...what you and others seem to ignore. They will be used in death and you'll make a buck on their torture. WASTE? yes you would think that. that's the problem, they are nothing more to you than something to throw away. You don't care that they are over bred and meet a horrendous death....I do and so do many other horse owners...we care about our friend and companion. We don't look at our horses like a side of beef. You will never justify horse slaughter

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