“The greatest deterrent
to freedom are men and women of zeal, well-meaning, but
without knowledge or understanding.”
~Justice Louis Brandeis~

"People are so quick to defend their own agendas, but they so often fail to realize we must protect the rights of all if we are to continue to have any rights of our own."
~Jenqu~

Ranch meaning, in general, any real world dwelling probably not involving full care board. Kind of a rural voice of real horse owners, trainers, traders, auction owners, rodeo contractors, etc.. all of us who have taken a verbal beating and called greedy ass hats. Back at the Ranch contributors, moderators, subjects, and so on, are pro-horse, pro-owner, and pro-slaughter.
Back at the Ranch was formed by a group of like minded horse / livestock owners. It is a place for us to try to educate, a place to vent our frustrations with the current equine industry, a place to share humor and snark, and in general try to open the eyes of the public who seem to be anti-agriculture.We do have a section for comments of course, and if you would like to email us you can do so directly or through the contact us form. We like to hear from our readers. I hope you enjoy reading our blog as much as I enjoy managing it.
Sincerely,
Ranch Manager
manager_back_at_the_ranch@yahoo.com

Thursday, September 17, 2009

What's worse than Slaughter? How about Equine Rescue?

see story










http://forums.delphiforums.com/ICERS/messages?msg=1555.1

The above links are yet another example of how Rescue has turned into long term torture for the horses unfortunate enough to fall into their care.While those on the Anti Slaughter side continue to re-live the past, and regale us with the findings of years ago, and talk about how things will never change, horses continue to suffer at a regular and alarming rate at the hands of those who are by their own definition more loving and compassionate than we back at the Ranch, on the Pro horse side will ever aspire to be.Thank God I'm on this side. I can't imagine the humanity involved in watching a horse slowly deteriorate day after day right in front of my eyes. What kind of special love and compassion is required to allow not one, but multiple horses to slowly starve, often walking over the dead carcasses of their herd mates in search of food and water that isn't there? The captive bolt? The smell of blood? The sense of panic when loaded onto a crowded trailer? I think it must pale in comparison to the living hell a horse must experience day after day when receiving the loving care only those blessed with a "special understanding" of the horse can supply. And what gifted person closes the door each night, walks into their own home and sits down to dinner while slow death is going on right outside that door? If I seem a little pissed off, or a bit cruel, well, I just am. I am so sick and tired of not only reading these damned stories, but the finger pointing and justifying that goes along with them. Hey, here's an idea, it would appear that Rescue is inhumane, why not get some legislation on the table to stop it? I think it's the moral thing to do before even one more horse enters the "Rescue Pipeline".Yes, I know there are a lot of good, responsible Rescues out there. I support some of them. I am just sick to death reading about the other ones while hearing about the inhumanity of Slaughter. And we are certainly hearing about the others on a fairly regular basis lately. I wonder what the Anti Slaughter side thinks about that?
Written by RH2
note:
RH2, I know you were being a little bit facetious when you said
“Hey, here's an idea, it would appear that Rescue is inhumane, why not get some legislation on the table to stop it? I think it's the moral thing to do before even one more horse enters the "Rescue Pipeline".
However I really do feel that there are not enough legal guidelines for rescues. Sure they have to clear a couple hurdles and jump through a hoop or two to get their tax exempt status (or so I am told) But there seem to be no physical requirements, no real rules to follow in the care and upkeep of the horses and facilities. Obviously there is no organization or officials inspecting facilities or checking on the animals even periodically. I am disgusted with the whole damn thing!!
Thank you for writing this, we all need to pay attention to what is really going on and not be fooled or side tracked by the anti side anymore.
R.M
ooops almost forgot.... Vicki......
she has her google alert set to notify her when her name is used. LOL

96 comments:

  1. I admit to being more than a little upset when writing this. The photo of the horse says it all. I am still sick to my stomach at all of the humanity involved in it, and can't quite wrap my head around why we're looked upon as the evil ones in all of this. The stories continue on and on with the "Rescues" providing a living hell for these horses, but hey-this must be that chance we keep hearing about them having if they don't go to Slaughter. You'll have to excuse me, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little typing that.

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  2. Its funny how the anti's say us Pro Horse people are the ones that are inhumane when it comes to slaughter or re homing horses that are unwanted anymore.. but yet your right... how many 100's of horses just so far this year have been starved to death.. or starved to the point they wish they were dead all in the care of the "Rescues" run by Anti's? Now tell me how many horses have been "rescued" from Pro Horse ranches or farms or even back yards because of starvation? None that I know of.. It seems that the Anti side think that starving to death... a very slow painful death is how a horse should end its life. It seems that so much of it is going on now. I hope that "VICKI" comes on here and tells us how "RESCUE" by Anti Slaughter people is so much better then slaughter..

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  3. Again....Gee, isn't it quiet in here? This is what infuriates me, also. If this was a Slaughter article, the Anti crowd would be all over it. That picture is horrific. Two comments? I guess no one has anything to say. Must be the horses entered the wrong pipeline.
    Vicki probably doesn't have any facts or figures on this one.

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  4. Aww, come on. You got to give her time to make up a story.
    I, personally, will never sell another horse to an "I love horsies" type. This is what happens.
    Maybe you need a few entries on caring for horses, how it's not just when you feel like it? I have a gut feeling she dragged over some followers who may actually be trying to learn something and maybe see through the hypocrisy of a group of people without a clue what an equine is, let alone how to care for one trying to tell people who've dealt with animals all their lives how to do things.
    I ran across a dog sight - they have the same kind of nut cases in the dog world.
    Kinda sad people won't bother to learn.

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  5. Well, I had thought, or rather hoped that people were just busy, and would get to this and comment on it. Could it be that I am right? If it's not Slaughter, it's not on the radar? Where's John Holland and his fancy phrasing? Vicki has nothing to say? The Anti group that follows them has no opinion? That photo, those stories do nothing to offend because they don't address the "Slaughter Pipeline", the Usual Suspects, the Greed and Inhumanity of the Pro horse side? I guess this has proven what I have long feared-the Anti side, for the most part has a severe case of Tunnel Vision. Their vision rests squarely on one issue , and that is Slaughter. If this story, and the many, many others like it, whether the number of horses is 1 or in the hundreds, doesn't move one to at the very least admit we need to have a talk, then where are we? Had the very same photo been posted with a headline pertaining to only Slaughter, we all know we would be at post number 25 or so right now. I guess that slow, torturous death is not only acceptable to the Rescues providing it, but to those on the Anti side who choose to look the other way.

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  6. I hear you rh2. We don't even rate a couple lines to proclaim themselves pro-horse and us anti-horse?
    Here is the thing... the pro horse side has many issues to work on(some created by the anti side) and we are working on them all every day. The anti slaughter side is working on one thing only and turning a blind eye or more often are just totally ignorant of all the other issues in the modern equine community. How they have the nerve to call themselves pro horse is beyond me.

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  7. You know, we've been kind of joking about them using the Pro horse name when referring to themselves. Now I'm just mad about it!!!!!! I DO NOT want to be in any way associated with a group of people who DO THIS TYPE OF THING, and who KNOWING ABOUT IT, remain SILENT!!!!!! How shameful! There is more to this story, and the more I find, the more upset, and just plain old pissed off I become! Anti-Horse????? Vicki had best take a good, hard, long look at this story and the "Special" care these horses have received at the hands of her Anti Slaughter followers. She may be very surprised at some of the names that are coming up.

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  8. I'm not Vicki [whoever she is] nor am I John Holland. [him-- I've heard of]

    I hope you don't mind a former pity purchaser of culls at low end auction chiming in with her two cents' worth. I've returned to my former life as just another amatuer owner.

    Big-time horse rescues are silent on this matter because they have no real solutions. Never did, I'm sad to say. For a while, I was duped. There. I'ved admitted. So there's no need to wonder this poster is disenchanted or not. I am terriblly disenchanted and at times disguested.

    Big time horse rescue outfits if they are easier to understand if you'd view them as just another segment of the horse industry's underbelly.

    As far as I'm able to determine, most [but not all] official horse rescuers resist adhering any sort of across-the-board code of ethics or simple basic standards involved in day-to-day horse maintenance operations. Seems to me, they like to impose rules of good conduct more than than follow them.

    MKH in NC

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  9. FROM.........http://forums.prospero.com/alexbrown/messages?msg=37857.65............

    """"As some of us feared....a lot of the horrible things that are going on with rescues are gaining the attention of the pro slaughter side who mock even our good. efforts and achievements.

    While they dwell and enhance the bad stuff, it is adding fuel to their fire and points for their pro slaughter mission.

    Take a minute and go look. We are mentioned over and over."""""

    So this is how the Anti-Horse looks at this Blog. They dont see what we say and then say .. "we need to change" for the better of the horse..
    Why is that?? Why cant they see that something needs to be done. If the horses would of gone to slaughter at least it would not have been a long dron out death. But yes the Anti-horse people think that starving very slowly is so much better then slaughter.. GO FIGURE.

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  10. I am not pro or con on slaughter. I cannot tell Joe Blow what to do with his horse, I can just take care of mine. I have worked with a few rescues, and sadly, have come to the conclusion that most of them are in it for the mental charge of doing "good" and just maybe making a buck or two. The rescues involved with this particular blog have had a "I'm bigger than you" attitude since they started. They send the horses to each other because they can't afford to take care of them and then go get more. When it falls apart, then they have someone to blame. This is supposed to be better than slaughter. Don't you get "it".

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  11. Thank you for the comments, I'm glad to hear some from people other than those of us here on the Blog.
    I really want some insight into this, and appreciate what you've got to say.
    Believe it or not, it really isn't a Pro Anti war with me. It is in every way an issue of Equine welfare. Those on the Anti side who continually go on and on about the horrors of Slaughter really need to face this issue. To remain silent on it is just wrong.
    I don't know anything about the Rescues or egos involved. What I do know is there is a lot of talk about how much love there is for the horses. The pictures I saw speak volumes of what that love has done to them.
    MKH in NC, I have no problem with "Pity purchases", I've done them myself. It's the gross abuse and neglect we see on a growing basis by those who claim to be better people than we are. It's just sick. If you save them, for Heaven's sake, take care of them. This Rescue did not do that.
    Anonymous#1, I'm not surprised that they would rather see this as an attack than a wake up call. As long as they can play the victim, they can keep us as the bad guy, and nothing has to change. Isn't that what they want, after all? Let's see how many more horses they can kill in the name of love. What we need to do is begin keeping a tally of all horses killed by Rescues. We need to send word of this, and every incident like it to Reps supporting Legislation that the Anti side is pushing for. It's time to show everyone just how much hell the horses lives are in the hands of those special people.
    Anonymous#2 Those are good points. And you're right, this is SUPPOSED to be better than Slaughter. But I do not feel that it is. It is shameful and disgusting, and those involved can try to explain it any way they wish. They are abusive and neglectful. If we are talking about them here, it is because they are a detrement to the welfare of the horses in their care.

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  12. So, how do we stop skinny horses? All want to get that accomplished, so let's figure it out. I'm just brainstorming here & please join me! 1) feed is too expensive in some parts of the country. we could have a feed back-up plan like KY does for people that are out of work ... upi can apply for extra feed funds if you are out of work, etc. 2) have horse ownership courses available for people at auctions & other horse-buying outlets (where else?) It seems that often people don't know how to take care of horses properly vs. really wanting to neglect them. Let's teach them how to care for horses correctly. 3) maybe we need to have people register their horses at the county or state level so that someone has knowledge of where the horses are/can keep track of them? People being accountable seems to stem the incendents of neglect. 4) if people don't/won't keep track of their own horses, maybe there should be an incentive for other people to report skinny/unkept horses to the authority for a reward system? People will react if they know they can be effective.
    Let's brainstorm! Other ideas?

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  13. I am hoping and thinking that the lack of comments on this site are due to the fact that you guys are really not all that interesting. I have been a horse person, with a degree in equine management, equine appraiser and paralegal for the past 35 years. I am dedicating myself to educating those that you refer to as "ignorant". There are people out there that don't know how to care for their horses, but rather than put them into a class of anti or pro, why not educate, put the knowledge you all profess to have, to good work. Perhaps if you would open your mouths and teach people that over breeding has to stop, backyard breeding, has to stop, responsibility has to be advocated, maybe, just maybe, there could be a solution to the problems you mention in this article. There are bad rescues just as there are bad horse people. However, there are a number of very good rescues as well, I happen to volunteer for one of the best in this country, in my opinion. We do alot of great work, we take those starved horses you mentioned, from the former owners and actually rehabilitate them. I'm sure you guys would be in favor or rehabilitation over slaughter..right? Since you are all horse people. Not all rescues are like the one mentioned in the above referenced story, in fact, I would say there are more good reputable rescues out there than you even know about. Rather than throwing daggers at the people that are actually trying to make a difference in a horses life, why not embrace their efforts, if you see that they don't know what they are doing, teach them, unless you don't know yourself...could that be a possibility? I have read all the posts on this blog regarding this article and not one has a positive conotation. Come on people quit with the name calling...that is so childish. Be a solution to the problem, not a supporter. Do something constructive with your self-proclaimed knowledge.
    And as for Vicki and John, they are doing a great job and they are making a difference in this horrendous situation we are facing. Stop being so sinical, be pro-active. I don't believe slaughter is the answer to the problem, I believe the over breeding and backyard breeding is the problem. We need to all stop drawing lines in the sand and come together with some solutions so our horses no longer suffer from poor management and/or the horrendous fate of the slaughter houses.

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  14. Whether each of us are pro horse sl. or anti
    horse slaughter, we have to realize this
    is neglect and abuse.
    People that allow horses they can see every day out side their home dwindle to approx. 110 lbs. have some mental disorder.
    Hoarders think they are "saving" animals from
    something far worse, and do not understand.

    How can a 501 take in funds and not feed the
    horses? That is fraud, isnt it?
    We have rich race horse owners that
    have been charged with abuse and neglect for starving their horses.

    also, when we had horse slaughter plants in this
    country, horses could be within an hours drive of a slaughter plant and still stand in a pasture to starve.

    It has been in the law books for decades and Pres. Bush resigned a few years back stating that the captive bolt is inhumane.
    We dont need to be a rocket scientist to realize a horse is a flight animal and the captive bolt
    is inhumane.

    Why should Vicki or John H. have to respond to every abuse story printed?

    These animals need a voice, and the rescues or owners who allow a horse to starve should never
    ever have animals again.

    So whether each of us are pro or anti,
    come on folks, this is called abuse.

    Also, there are some people that leave their horses, cats, dogs behind in a foreclosure
    situation. Those animals have no voice... How many people watch a starving animal until its nearly dead thinking, oh someone else will call.
    We need to take the approach to stop curelty and abuse. This is not a fight over Pro vs. anti.

    This person who starved horses has a voice, and
    who did she tell that the horses were starving?

    Why did she/he not ask for help? If she wanted them
    to go to slaughter, she could have called on that too.

    Hoarders are mentally " different."

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  15. I'm a first time poster here and not about to comment on the rescue you're charging here. I'd not seen the name of it posted. But you people all sound like you're making this exactly an anti vs. pro war, and like you've got your warriors well armed now to take on this fight and beat up on those whom you happen to find inferior.

    You'd lumped them all in together, and this is just your own ignorance, just as you're claiming your opponent is. Pick up your f'kin' marbles now, and go home.

    There are many on both sides of this issue that are doing great works. Not all antis are incompetent / abusers and not all pros are horsemen / blood thirsty, neither one. But you sure do sound like it.

    You'd really euthanize that horse in the photo? Why? A legitimate question. That horse isn't on the brink of death. I can show you some that are. And they're not at any rescue. Just a ranch.

    Read your own rant! Sounds rather like you've put antis/rescues in that victim category as you're doing nothing but attacking them! They're your victim here for sure!! You're behaving like an out of control lynch mob, showing plenty of enthusiasm for the job also. You do sound blood thirsty in your childish banter. I'm embarrassed for you!

    If it is indeed equine welfare you're concerned with, you should all learn to work toward that end together, don't ya think? Or is this more fun for you? Does this really solve so much of the equine problems? Show me! Pity party? Yup, Whoop it up, must be working for the pro slaughter people! You'd not proven yourselves to be good horsemen here, I can tell you! Saying it don't make it so.

    You've not even proven yourselves to be men. Little boys, maybe little girls. Hard to decipher that one. Not adult that is clear! Back at the Rancho Romper Room!

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  16. Reply to Lori

    stopping the "skinny" horses is like
    how do we teach humans to be responsible in a way, right?

    Some folks have the mindset that we are suppose to see a horses ribs. what class did they go to?

    In many abuse / neglect cases, and another one
    in Nebr. just this year, do the " abusers"
    ask for help I wonder?

    We all know the counties dont want to have to seize horses, because they cant feed them.

    but there should be local communication
    in the horse areas that if the horse owners are in trouble they need to ask, ask for help to feed those horses or get them in to another home?

    Its not like a horse can be hidden very easy and no one will ever find out.

    Horses are wise animals, and true they can teach
    the average human a lot. Horses are very trusting and we have some mighty sick humans out there thats for sure.

    Stopping skinny horses should be easy, but
    many Americans use the phrase: They are private
    property, I can do what I want."

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  17. Vicki needs no help here. She's so much better than this. I'd not comment to your rant either were I her. She's got some class, and I'm in total ageement with the poster that said let's educate! Shouldn't be so tough for such pro horsemen, should it? If you are concerned for equine welfare as you claim here.

    BK7557 made many good points, and one right on point is; that Vicki and John are doing some great work. They're trying to make things better for the horses. This photo is in no way representative of Vicki or John's idea of Rescue. People get a clue! Spiteful is all you are to say such a thing. Neither Vicki or John would ever starve a horse. They'd care for it, and feed it! Yes, and they'd love it. Something wrong in loving a horse? BK7557 I'd urge you, take your advice, and educate. You might want to begin right here on this thread. Great Ideas BK7557, enjoyed your post very much. Regards,

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  18. So this is the big evidence against horse rescue - "We are told they were at the farm of a woman who apparently is in the business of rescuing horses herself." Talk about pro-slaughter grasping for straws.

    I know of rescues that have had law enforcement called on them because of skinny horses on their properties - hello - they were just rescued, they got them that way. I guess these horses should've put on weight WAY FASTER.

    Hey folks, slaughter is still going on regardless of where. More US horses have been slaughtered in the last couple of years since the last of the US slaughterhouses closed than when they were open. People who let their horses starve are not the type to sell them to slaughter. That's just a fact.

    And the AVMA & AAEP should be promoting horse rescue, not slaughter. I know of one rescue that is keeping several vets busy and well paid, they have vets on their property just about every other day every week. That's money for vets. One rescued colt is getting ready to have a $4000 surgery. Slaughter doesn't pay vets a freaking dime.

    It'll be interesting to see how the slaughter trade goes when they all have to hold thousands of horses for 6 months before slaughter to meet the new EU rules. Hee heee hee.....

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  19. Rescue's clean up the mess, plain and simple. Overbred horses from people that just cast them away and have no problem that those horses will be butchered alive. Injured race horses, pmu foals, nurse mare foals, starved, abused. Horse slaughter is alive and well in the United States, ( they don't meet their tortorous death here, but you can still sell to a KB and off they go). You can still get a quick buck for a cast off. People that are going to abuse and starve animals, do it regardless. The majority are good rescues. So let's find some that are in trouble and post them...Why not post ones like, Habitate for Horses,Old Friends Rescue, Manes and Tails,Beauty's Haven, Another Chance 4 Horses and the list goes on and on. They save and care for HUNDREDS... Instead of pushing that horse slaughter is the ansewer, why don't you push for stronger abuse laws. Horse slaughter is abuse, starving a horse is abuse. I am a horse owner, I have rescues, I help rescues, what do you do pro....sit there and trash people that love horses and try to justify killing horses in a despicable way.

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  20. The pro-slaughter anti-horse folks keep proving the same point for the pro-horse side over and over, and are just too illogical to even realize it: slaughter does not prevent abuse/neglect/abandonment of horses or any other animals. IF it did, then why are we seeing starving horses? Slaughter is still an option for horse owners. There have been plenty of reports of cows starving to death also. Obviously cow slaughter is alive and well but did nothing to prevent the starvation of entire herds of cattle.

    Horse slaughter is inhumane; why would anyone with a shred of decency and compassion think it's okie dokie to substitute one form of cruelty for another?

    I'm so sick of the anti-horse people resorting to attacking pro-horse folks such as John and Vicki when they can't dispute their data. Just goes to show the level of intelligence and maturity we're dealing with here on the anti-horse, pro-slaughter side.

    I read recently that in the US alone, we slaughter more than 10 BILLION animals annually for food purposes. Isn't that enough?

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  21. Well, it appears to me that folks on ABR and ICERS forums are working diligently to expose and put an end to so called "rescues" who in reality abuse and starve horses. I don't have a problem with that when the accusations are legitimate. People who abuse and starve animals should be reported, have charges filed against them and prevented from owning animals in the future regardless of what they call themselves. Anyone can call themself a rescue, doesn't make it so. There are hundreds of excellent rescues across the country doing everything in their power to help these animals. Some are even providing low cost euthanasia services for those who can't afford to keep their horses.

    And just what exactly is it that pro-slaughter anti-horse people are doing, other than clamoring for horse slaughter to continue? Is that the best you can come up with?

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  22. I run a rescue and am PROUD of it! I would not mind at all if legislation had rules for rescues, in fact I believe they should. Site checks? Not a problem. I have taken in over 100 horses and have cared for starved ones, lame ones you name it. Vet bills and feed bills are large and I have sadly put down 5 horses. I had them humanely laid to rest and personally paid for it. I did this BEFORE they were tortured or got any worse. I was able to realize that they were not going to get better as soon as they arrived and with the vet's advice . It was obvious and I did not want them to suffer. I have taken in several starving cases only to have them looking great in 4-7 months. They were adopted into loving homes that still send me photos of them and what they have done. 4 wild and abused minis are now gentle driving horses that I have personally seen, 2 have gone on to become champs in their showing classes in driving and obstacle. Several more are wonderful family pets. I agree that some rescues may not be legit just as anything in life there is always room for abuse and fraud but to lump most of us all together is absurd. Most people do not even know I have a rescue and yes I am a 501 (c)3 but this is not for glory or bragging rights or more people would know about us. I can't imagine where horses would be without the many many wonderful rescues that are out there! Your posting is absurd! Take a minute to cool down. I am against slaughter but I agree we are all entitled to our opinion and debate. I think you can try to make your point in other ways other than bashing all the rescues out there that have tried to help. Hoarders are not rescues and rescues are not hoarders. People need to check into where there horse is going just like buyer beware!

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  23. Oooh, look at this bad rescue, which according to your own simplistic logic, must mean that slaughter is the solution. Yes, some people are misguided, don't know what they're doing or simply are just mentally ill. Let's generalize that to all rescues to justify your position. Moving on to read a real argument, which I won't be finding here...

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  24. argument.... ARGUMENT... oh that's good... tell me what is YOUR argument Anonymous (one before me :) ) to support being for rescues that starve horses and are in it just for the buck.. the all mighty dollar as you put it... but yet do not seem to use that dollar for feed for the horses... how is that better then slaughter... long suffering better then quick death... sorry do not see it. I hate to see a good horse go for slaughter but if no one wants that good horse for anything then when it goes for slaughter then i would say that it WAS wanted for something... food... you might not eat horse meat but some people do.. does that make them bad people.. NO... it means that they like something that you do not.
    I love my horses and I take very good care of them.. but when i sale them it is because I do not WANT them any more.. with luck someone else will want them.. for saddle horses or dinner... As long as he is wanted for something then its all good.
    My LOGIC,,,,,, ARGUMENT..... is.... as long as the horse is not starved or abused then who am i to say anything.. and do i want to say... "if you ever do not want the horse you have to give him to me as i bred and raised him".... NO... once that horse is sold then it is not mine to say what is to be done with that horse again...

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  25. Check out Habitat For Horses, Pure Thoughts, Shiloh, TB Friends, just for starters. I've seen QH "breeders" with starved horses, we've all seen "all" animals starved, there's sick people everywhere, duh! More inspectors and inspectors, good idea, but probably not going to happen with today's economy. The way I see it, today's youth are headed in a different direction than we where, horses will continue to be more costly to keep than they are now. Unless horses are raised strickly for human consumption, (of course some are at this moment), then we'll see a continued decline in the slaughter pipeline until the end. With Wyeth pharmacuetical in trouble for their cancer giving Premarin, Prempro, the PMU business has hit bottom, the TB racing in trouble, the QH business in trouble it seems the hand writing is on the wall. The good rescues will continue to do what they can with what they have, while the irresponsible breeders will continue for a while longer, then the EU new regs will kick in and put the punta knife in their neck. Just my two cents worth.

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  26. We all know there is a vast difference between hoarding and rescue. There is a vast difference between mental illness and a mental health. Let's not confuse someone's felony animal abuse with the legitimate rescues or even insinuate that this is the norm. You are better than that I am sure. Hoarders do not ask for help; that is a symptom of the mental illness. Animal abuse such as this is a felony and should be prosecuted as such. Here is a link to a story that appeared in The Saratogian yesterday that shows a responsible rescue http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2009/09/19/sports/doc4ab591f348339820498045.txt I wonder how many people will take the time to copy and paste to read that story. Seems there's more time spent bashing and calling out Vicki and John's name like schoolyard bullies.

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  27. Anon that posted at 12:32, you are missing the point. Slaughter does not prevent starvation and neglect. Those horses are not going to slaughter. They didn’t send them to slaughter when the plants were open and they’re not sending them now.

    I worked on two rescues recently and both were seizures. So if you go to the rescues, you will see starving horses. That’s the way they got them. The fault lies with the owner, not the rescue. The largest neglect case in US history happened in 2005 when all three plants were operating. The owners that neglect their animals are of a different mindset and don’t send them to slaughter. Many, when confronted say they are taking great care of their animals.

    And yes, there are bad rescues that are out there to make a buck. When we find out about them, we expose them and many are prosecuted. This is no different than human charities. In every walk of life, you find people that will take advantage. There are humans that abuse their children just as there are humans that abuse their animals. There are horse owners and breeders that are responsible and take ownership and there are those that don’t want the responsibility of ownership and use slaughter to dump their horse rather than being responsible and euthanizing their horse or breeding only what they can sell.

    You can blame whomever you want but the responsibility lies with the owner of the animal. They choose to buy or breed and they choose to care or not care for their horse.

    Pointing out a few bad rescues from the hundreds and hundreds of good rescues does not make your point. Instead of focusing on the negative, why not blog about the good that is being done? Beauty’s Haven has taken in dozens of neglected horses and done wonderful things. Manes and Tails Organization, Habitat for Horses, Winding Road Equine Rescue, Eagle’s Nest Draft Rehab and Rolling Dog Ranch to name a few.

    I just returned from my annual visit to Old Friends Thoroughbred Retirement Facility in KY. Google them and find out all the work Michael Blowen has done in providing these athletes a well deserved retirement.

    There is a lot of good out there but as always, the anti-horse folks always want to focus on the negative.

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  28. Anyone that invites a living creature into their life is, in my opinion, totally responsible for the care and well being of that creature (as we're talking about horses, that's what I'll address).
    Far too many people look upon their horses as "property" and "I'll damn well do what I want with IT". But when these people dump their casto-offs at auction, where most end up in the slaughter pipeline, then it becomes MY problem as these poor horses end up in slaughterhouses here in Canada.
    These horse owners are absolving themselves of being repsonsible by dumping these horses at auction instead of being responsible and, if unable to find a GOOD home, having them humanely put down at home by a competent vet.
    God, you people that do this are stupid, callous and so greedy. The money you spend to send a horse to auction is more than it would cost for humane euthanasia.
    You should be ashamed of yourselves.

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  29. Good, it looks like we're awake now!
    Lori Hackman: I agree on the Feed backup plan. It would be great if each community could have some type of surplus area, kind of like a food cupboard for horses set up where people could go for help. We've discussed this in the past. There could even be emergency cash funding available. I'd much rather see this to have horses remain with their owners than to have to leave their homes. We've discussed the importance of having programs in place to allow those in short term situations the opportunity to get out of them. The problem is how to fund them? Those in each community can certainly start them, and hopefully maintain them. I'd like to at least see them try. On a personal level, we have always donated surplus hay to those in need every year, because we baled our own, and always had some. But it would help so much more if there could be some central location that people knew they could go to.
    Mentoring is important, too. Again, this could be done on a community level where neighbors could help each other out. We've discussed this, too, and it's a great idea. Maybe a pamphlet could be made up to be distributed at auctions with some basic ownership information in it, and contact information for the community. It would at least be a start. You're right, we need to brainstorm, and come up with ideas to keep horses in good shape.
    Sadly, in situations like the Rescues, these people are supposed to have the knowledge. I don't know what the solution will be in these cases, but again, we need to work together to come up with them to make sure that no horse is abused like these poor horses have been.

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  30. BK7557- I know it's always easy to run back to the comfortable argument of over breeding, and those back yard breeders, but the topic of THIS blog is the IRRESPONSIBLE,ABUSIVE, AND NEGLECTFUL RESCUES that take in horses, collect donations, claim to love these animals, and allow them to slowly waste away, sometimes to the point of death. We can talk about all of your other favorite subjects on another day, but today, we're going to focus on THIS ONE. Why? Because WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS WRONG!!!!!
    Yes, there are good rescues, and I believe I did state that. I support them. But we are not talking about them, we are talking about the ones who abuse, neglect, and kill horses today. THEY are the ones who are mistreating the horses, not their former owners. And in some cases other Rescues brought horses to them. Vicki and John are absolutely stellar at what they do.

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  31. Anonymous#1 I agree, where Abuse, neglect, and mistreatment occur, there should be no "side". That is why I am so angry at those who try to justify this. It is wrong. Those involved in it are wrong.
    You cannot make the argument that Slaughter is inhumane and turn a blind eye to this.
    john and Vicki do not have to respond to every abuse story printed. However, Vicki seems to make her way here every time Slaughter is mentioned, to let us know how horrific it is, and how awful those who "support" it are. Yet when abuse and neglect of this magnitude occurs at the hands of the Anti Slaughter side, Vicki did not seem to have a word to say.

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  32. Anonymous#2-If you can look at the pictures and not become upset, good for you. There is no lynch mob attitude here, we're just tired of hearing how inhumane Slaughter is. And then we read about 3 Strikes. And then we read about Orphan Acres. And then we see this. And these are only 3 examples. There are almost weekly stories nationwide of Rescues needing Rescue. Where have you been? Of course we're angry! Horses slowly starving to death while those who claim to love and care for them sit inside their own homes and eat a nice meal? You bet your ass I'm going to say something! It's been going on for so long, and so far, it's been kept quiet-well no more.
    Work together? Anytime, Anywhere. Have a conversation on how we can make it better? We'd love nothing more! But overlook this? Not on your life!!!!

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  33. Anonymous#5 The story comes from the news paper, and the forum that two of the rescues post on. There is a link form another forum, but that forum in it's entirety has been deleted. From the photos I've seen, and the comments I've read, there are indeed horses starving, and 2 dead, possibly more. I don't think we're grasping.
    I know Slaughter is a favorite argument, but today, we're discussing rescues that ABUSE, NEGLECT, AND SOMETIMES KILL THE HORSES IN THEIR CARE. We'll get back to your favorite subject soon, but for right now, this is the topic of discussion.

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  34. Lin, There are many wonderful Rescues. We aren't discussing them today. Slaughter is a favorite subject. We are not discussing it today. What we are discussing are RESCUES THAT ABUSE, NEGLECT, AND SOMETIMES KILL THE HORSES IN THEIR CARE. This story has some interesting twists in that two rescues had taken some horses to THIS rescue and left them there. One of the Rescues, from what I have read has taken horses back from there, and sadly, has had one of their horses die as a result of the love and care of the Rescue in question. The other Rescue, from what I have read continues to support the Rescue in question, and has not removed the horses they left in the Rescue's care yet. This isn't about Rescues cleaning up other peoples' messes, it's about people that should be trustworthy abusing and killing horses. It's wrong!

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  35. Anonymous #1 (after Lin) Sorry, with so many anonymous posters, it's hard to respond.
    The Pro horse side has actually been saying this all along, and the Anti Side is just catching up, but we're not talking Slaughter here. We need to address this issue. There are Anti Slaughter people who claim to love horses, and who promised to give them a better life. They said that placing the horses with them was a better alternative than the trailers, the kill pens, the captive bolt. We continue to see story after story of horrific neglect, abuse, and even death at the hands of these loving, compassionate individuals. As Pro horse people, we can no longer sit by and hope the Anti Slaughter side is going to deal with it and fix it. Obviously, they are not going to. We will no longer remain silent about this. We will point out every single instance of abuse, neglect, and death at the hands of Anti Slaughter Advocates that we see. To do otherwise is enabling.

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  36. RH2... YES WE WILL... I have all so been reading about all the rescues that clam to be "SAVING" the horses from the long ride to the SH... but yet them horses end up being saved AGAIN by another so called rescue... until there is 5 out of 10 horses dead from the first count at the fist rescue. Horder??? no I don't think so... someone out to make a buck and see there name in print and are able to check there paypal acc. daily and see how much money has come in today.... ya I think there is many of them... they sit at their tables in there nice warm homes eating bonbon's and getting fat.. but yet there is many eyes looking into the sliding glass window begging for just a little bit of food.. then there is the ones laying out in the mud or sand... with the halo's of them trying to get up ... trying to just hang on to life just for a little bit longer... So how do we stop all of this??? Make the people apply for a permit and have a back ground check?? Put up a deposit of many 1,000's to be refunded as needed for feed after about 4 years of clean rescue? What?? How??? I do not know what anyone will do.. but I know that I am sick and tired of seeing where this one and that one is looking for funds to rescue horses from a sale but yet two days before said that they can not take any more horses in because they just did not have room... then go to a auction and get two or three very starved horses that we all know sale for 25.00 or less but yet they had to raise 300.00 per head to bail them out and then another 300.00 for QT. but yet will spend what.... 200.00 for it all? makes me wonder. and you Anti's should think about it as well.. I am writing every horse that got rescued from a rescue or die in a rescue, I will keep track of all of it... and I will send it to who ever I need to..
    J Doe.. Montana

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  37. Vicki, You made a lot of good points, and I am impressed with your insights. I share many of your opinions, and have in fact, expressed them myself in the past. However, let's be fair. The Pro horse side isn't here for the sole purpose of pointing out the negatives of the Equine Industry. We discuss many subjects, and some are negative. That is reality. We could say the same abut you, when you focus solely on the Slaughter issue, and fail to credit those of us on the Pro horse side with any of the positive things we do.
    Without question, there are many wonderful Rescues. We are for the purpose of this discussion, talking about the growing number of those who are abusive and neglectful. To avoid talking about them would be irresponsible on the part of all of us, not just the Pro horse side.
    This appears to be a growing problem, not an isolated incident. The more I read, the more I find, and the more concerned I become. If you do not share my concern, that is certainly your choice. For those of us who feel that Rescues have the responsibility of taking proper care of the horses they bring in, it is imperative to keep this issue in the forefront.

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  38. J Doe, The question of what to do is a tough one. Yes, there are very good Rescues, but cases like this are concerning. And what do we do about Rescues shuffling horses from their own operations to the operations of others? Why is this happening? Who is then responsible for the horses? Who should be checking up on them, and how often? Who should be paying for their care? If a rescue is notified that their horse may be in danger, what responsibility should it have? If that Rescue is now full, what happens to the horse in danger? These are legitimate concerns, not axes to grind with the Anti side. If you tell us you have a better way, and we see horses going through hell, then it is our responsibility to question what is going on.
    I agree, there should be some way to keep track of the fatalities at the hands of rescues. And a way to keep track of the abuse and neglect cases. If Rescues are not doing the job they claim to be, and offering horses an alternative better than Slaughter, we need to address that.
    Horses suffering and dying is never something anyone wishes to see. To have it happen at the hands of those who claim to know a better way is very concerning to those of us involved with Equine welfare.

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  39. RH2, I know you guys don’t like John but he has done extensive studies on the correlation between abuse/neglect and the availability of slaughter. In his studies, he found the increases and decreases were directly related to the unemployment rate, not to the availability of slaughter.

    We keep bringing up slaughter is because most of the anti-horse articles are blaming the closure of the slaughter plants for the neglect and that is simply not true. Anyone can still send their horse to slaughter so why are they starving and neglecting them and not sending them to slaughter?

    The answer is to find solutions to help the folks that have fallen on hard times. There are many that abuse and neglect, such as Paragallo, where money is not the issue and have no excuse for the crimes they’ve committed. As for the others, John and I thought of perhaps contacting the NRA (renderers, not rifle!) and AVMA/AAEP to see if they would be willing to broker a deal to offer low cost/pro bono euthanasia and rendering for people that couldn’t sell or place their horses. I’m sure it would be a tax write-off to the vets & NRA and would certainly be a good will step in helping out. While we certainly are not promoting euthanizing horses, it would be a resource that is available to owners, should that be the only option left. I’d like to see some of the larger breed associations step up. Winter is coming and you know that means high hay prices are coming. How about taking a small portion of registration fees to establish hay funds and general funds to help owners? Separate accounts could be created so others could also donate that don’t belong to the association. The pro-horse folks would be more than willing to help out, just as they do with rescues. Other orgs like the AHC/UHC could start promoting rescues and ask members to help with their support as well or start something like the Thoroughbred charities for other breeds.

    There are many ways to help but it means setting aside differences and working toward solutions that help owners keep their horses.

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  40. First let me start by saying that the Pro Horse-Pro Slaughter name tag is an oxyMORON. Anyone who is for the horse can not be for slaughter. OOPS! I guess that is not the subject of the day.

    "Its funny how the anti's say us Pro Horse people are the ones that are inhumane when it comes to slaughter or re homing horses that are unwanted anymore.. but yet your right... how many 100's of horses just so far this year have been starved to death.. or starved to the point they wish they were dead all in the care of the "Rescues" run by Anti's?"

    In answer to the above comment, having 100's of starving horses is much better then 150,000 plus dieing at a torteous hell hole slaughter house. And how is it that Rescues that abuse and neglect their horses are run by those who do not support slaughter? You people seem to lump things in the pile that YOU think they should fit. People who say they are running a rescue and then let horses starve have their own motives for doing that. You can not say that all rescues are doing that. There are many fine rescues who only take in the horses they can adopt out and do it responsibly. Those of us who do not support slaughter, Pro Horse, do support rehoming. We do not feel horses are unwanted. The rescues have proven that there are many homes for these horses. The bigger issue is putting a stop to the excess. I agree with Lin. Why is it so hard for a breeder to stop breeding for a year? One would think that with the down turn of the ecomony they would realize that there are not a lot of buyers out there right now. So just don't bred. My barn saw this coming several years ago and sold off, to good homes, many of their breeding stock. They took in boarders instead. And if you are in the horse business you must be able to see that fewer people will be able to afford horses in the future. The cost of land, feed and vet care is just killing the horse market. Why can't you people see that? I love my horse but when he is gone, peacefully in my arms I hope, I don't think I will be getting another. And I know many people who had horses in the past and have not gotten another one and many say they won't. Those in the horse business must see that the Yuppies of the 80's and 90's, the real hay day for horses, are no longer buying horses for lawn ornaments. You all must see the bigger picture here. So think about moving on and finding a new way to make money to provide for your family. And there is no way that raised for slaughter is going to be more profitable then breeding and selling. One only needs to look at the slaughter houses in Canada that have recently closed. What margin of profit does a breeder think they are going to make? It will cost much more to feed and grow a horse then they will get from slaughter. But to keep to your subject, even if rescues are regulated, like slaughter houses, there will always be those who will not go according to the rules and will the government really be able to inspect them all? This is a much bigger problem then any of us can solve near.

    And please quit calling us out, those of us who love horses, because we have more important things to do, saving horses, then to play this ranting sterotype game with those who won't put their name on their posts.

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  41. Well, hay everyone! I've been watching this blog on horse slaughter and I think its a really cool blog. I see the anti slaughterers finally came. It's about time they came to find out what they've done and hear what they've got coming. Does everyone here remember when it wasn't any big deal to anybody when we could all do anything we wanted to with our horses, and if they starved nobody cared, and they didn't even write about it in the local newspapers? But since we don't have slaughter right here now, now these cases are in the headlines all around the world. If anybody catches you nowdays starving or beating your horse, and if its a rescue who did it, that just goes to show you proof that it's really their fault cause they're the ones who won't take their horse to slaughter. If they'd just let us do what we want with our horses, we could send em all to slaughter when ever we wanted, and all these problems would be solved. Isn't that what we all want is to solve these problems? We should be able to take as many as horses as we want to slaughter, but they're trying to stop us. They're the ones causing all these problems with abuse and causing horses to be running down all the freeways where you can't even drive down the road in piece.....and it won't stopp unless those horses can go to slaughter. Oh I know that they slaughtered about 130 thousand horses last year though, so they haven't stopped us yet. So we should all be happy for right now. Our horses are still going to slaughter...but hay I know we're still seeing these stories about starved horses. Why can't they just take their horses to slaughter like everybody else? Oh yeah right...this time it was a rescue. Did anybody here say what rescue did it? It doesn't matter. I bet all the starving horses are starved by the rescues because their the ones who won't send any horses to slaughter even if they need it. And they all need it sooner or later... So just let us do what we want...it's our property!! We're the PRO horse people here!! And RH2 you sure got it right. The anti's don't give us any credit for all the positive good we do, and now I know that rescues are all out there just to ask for money and then starve horses. I didn't hear about that before. We wouldnt starve our horses, we would do the right thing and take em to slaughter. We're the responsible ones. That's how we make sure of their welfare and give em proper care. If they get sick and get too skinny, and we don't want them anyway, and then what are we supposed to do? You take em to slaughter. And besides when theyre dead, theire dead! Who cares after that? And there's just way too many horses out there, and if the rescues would quit saving them and send them to slaughter, and let us send them slaughter, then the bottom prices would go back up where they;re supposed to be. I can't figure out why they don't see that.

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  42. Vicki... what ever you ANTI HORSE people do you will never get everyone to feed their horses and NOT take them to slaughter... and Anti Horse people will not be able to keep the fake rescues from starting either. and NO ONE not you (vicki) Anit Horse people will ever check up on your horses you send to a rescue.. you give money to who ever says they are going to rescue a horse and then ask them to send pictures... heck i can get my hands on lots of pictures of starved horses. Are YOU going to take the horses that you have paid the bail for???? are YOU going to make sure that there is checkup's on the horses you pay bail for.... or are you just going to look on a web site for pictures of horses that you don't know if they are there or not. You ANTI's jump at the chance to give money to bail a horse out of the sale yard.. but yet all you ever do is ask for pictures...... no one wants this blog to become a slaughter blog because its about the rescues.. but the rescues are taking in the horses headed to slaughter.. no one checks on them.. they send them here and there.. some pay for feed.. bail..QT... ask for pictures.. then its done.. they pat them self's on the back.. Job Well Done they say to them self. It is not US PRO HORSE people that are doing this.. Most starved horses come from ANTI HORSE people. They will not send the horse to the sale barn for fear of it going to slaughter.. so they let it sit in the back yard and starve while they are feeding their fat faces.. ya i am PISSED.. I am MAD.. Damn Mad.. you try and take the PRO HORSE name.... but yet how can you say your pro horse people when you do this... ANTI HORSE.. fits you all to a T...
    Figure out a way for all your friends to put a horse in their back yard.. feed it.. get a shit fork... and spend your days off building fence. Do not sit on your computer and read something... and send emails.. send money... send faxes and tell me what I...a PRO HORSE person is doing to NOT fix the starving horse problem in YOUR ANTI HORSE rescues.

    J Doe .. Montana

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  43. I can't keep track of all the Anonymous ones - so hopefully the right one reads this.
    Just how much more can we do to educate? Have you looked at any other entries in this blog besides the ones that might mention slaughter?
    I can show you right now 5 "rescues" within a few miles of me (well, I think it's down to 3 after the others had the horses starve). One has 15 horses standing in 1/2 acre of mud. The horses have seemed to be in good shape when they get there, but they go downhill fast. Will she listen to someone who knows about horses, especially in this area? Heck no, it cost to much to properly take care of an animal since the city moved in. She listens to the one that moved out here the week before and knows everything. The one I wait behind while she buys her cheap local hay and how her horses won't stop eating it they love it so much and it's only $4/bale - stupid people who buy the expensive stuff... When she finally leaves, I can back to the same pile and pay $2 for straw.
    People only hear what they want to hear. It's too much work to properly take care of any animal for most of them. They aren't going to go to someone who's actually done it, they're going to go the the Vicki & Johns who have all the right words to ease their souls. The same Vickis who never owned a horse or know the first thing about care, the same John who rides a "spirited stallion" - whom anyone with an inkling of knowledge can see he hasn't a clue, either what a good horse is or how to ride and especially what a trained horse is. He's bred himself - but for his personal forever horses. Right. Would you like to know how many "forever" free horses I've turned down this year (oops, forgot about the ones that are in freezers - it's not illegal to put your own animals in the freezer)?
    Another thing - how can these donors miss the fact that these $500 horses cost $25 at the sale? Why is so much money spent on the worst of them, and the ones that have a future are left to die?

    The biggie that burns me: Why do these idiots support the backyard breeder by "rescuing" from them? I know "breeders" whose market is rescues, over and over, year after year. Don't these antipeople have any damn sense? How can you educate people like this?

    Another thing that pisses me off about the stupidity of some of these people, "I was told the horses would be in a pasture enjoying their last years". It's 3 friggin acres with 30 - 50 horses. Just how much damn "pasture" can a horse enjoy - especially an old horse?

    Common sense ain't so common. You tell me how to educate these idiots, I just don't know anymore. I used to pick up prospects and take a chance - but I'm actually in this for money (could have called it a rescue and made money, I suppose). Now, the only time I'm going to take one of these plugs is when someone is hungary and has an empty freezer. Guess I am a "rescuer"?

    Try getting out from behind your computer and see what's out there. It's not pretty and a bunch of idiots and scammers are not making it any better. Try learning something yourself instead of blindly following (and "donating") to the ones who know even less than you probably.

    Damn - now I'm pissed.

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  44. J Doe
    So do you feel better blaming the people who really love horses for everything band that happens to horses? I'm guessing you just have to blame someone for all the things in your little world that don't go the way you like. And quit calling yourself a pro horse. That is just stupid. How do you think that slaughter is any good for the horse? Its only go for the pocket of the person who gets the money. Now take a BIG drink of that stuff you drink and get some sleep.

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  45. Anonymous (don’t you have a name), what are you ranting about? I gave several suggestions on how to help but I guess you really don’t want to help. You’d rather rant. Are you saying that everything we do should revolve around the small minority of owners that are irresponsible? Unfortunately, those aren’t the horses going to slaughter so what is your point?

    I’m glad you think you can speak for me. I do follow-up on the rescued horses and I do continue to support them. I also go visit the horses I support and just returned from Old Friends in KY. You sound like you are taking info from ABR and applying what you read, across the board. You have no idea of who we are and what we do. The people I work with don’t fundraise on boards. We have a network across the country comprised of rescues, vets, organizations and individuals that assist with the rescues. Most are seizures. We assisted with the 3 strikes rescue. Did you? What have you done to help?

    Sorry, if you support slaughter, you are not pro-horse. Nobody that values a horse and the contributions they make to society, would ever support slaughter. Pro connotates something positive and there is nothing positive about slaughter for a horse.

    If you are so pissed, I would suggest you get off your butt and director your anger at the people that are abusing, neglecting and not taking responsibility for their animals. If we weren’t so busy cleaning up their mess, the rescues would have more room and a hell of lot more money to spend on taking in rescues from people that have truly fallen on hard times. Not from those that just don’t want their horse any longer or the fools that keep breeding more horses than they can sell. The vet bills are enormous for horses pulled from the slaughter pipeline because of the abuse and cruelty that takes place from the moment they enter the pipeline.

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  46. Vicki, it has nothing to do with "liking" John, I don't know John. In fact, I believe I expressed my admiration for John for being the first person I have seen to admit the Anti Slaughter's fault in their actions in working to get the plants closed without really thinking things through. It would be helpful if we could discuss things without your feeling there was a personal like or dislike here. It is more the actions of the person I take issue with. Look at it like you would with a school student, or a child- you can disapprove of what they do, without dislikiing them.
    John has done studies, I know, but they have been done with the intent of proving his point. Therefore they have that slant. I don't think that is necessarily bad, but you have to take that intent into consideration when viewing anything produced by John. As far as his personal ownership knowledge, some of us disagree with some of what he believes to be true. That's nothing new in the horse world, though.
    I have no argument with John on his views on the correlation of abuse and neglect to the availiabilty to Slaughter because A) there has never been any success in removing that availability, and B) we have contended that the two are not inclusive.
    Vicki, I know why you keep bringing up Slaughter, and you have had ample opportunities to discuss it. I promise you will have many, many more. But just for the sake of this discussion, we would like to focus on RESCUES THAT ABUSE, NEGLECT, AND SOMETIMES KILL THE HORSES IN THEIR CARE. I completely understand how uncomfortable this must make you. These are, after all, Anti Slaughter people causing these innocent horses to suffer through what can only be described as a living hell. And yes, the circumstances they are going through DO make Slaughter appear to be an alternative that is more humane. You can choose to address this for what it is, or go back to your arguments you feel safe with. But I think you can see that this is not going away. It is not an isolated incident, and we need to address it. Not as Pro horse, Anti Slaughter people, but as those concerned with the welfare of horses placed into the care of people who have failed them miserably.

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  47. Lin Il, I think you must be missing the point, here. There is a horse rescue that has allowed horses to suffer, and some to die. Other rescues allowed their horses to go there. One of them, from what I can see, doesn't want to take the ones they have there back. There are a lot of other things that can be talked about, sure, but this is important, and we should talk about it. Why can't we, or why shouldn't we? I didn't see where anyone was getting "called out". The focus is on Rescues that are doing things that are wrong. You would think you would want to discuss that.

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  48. Right on point Vicki!!!!! Good job! It has gone silent here now. But it doesn't matter. They will come back to your response and keep ranting there same old dribble. They are not FOR the horse, only the money that it can provide and when that stops so does their committment to them. They should be calling themselves the ANTI-Horse group instead.

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  49. Rita,
    Like it has been said before, many rescues are good. We can't put them all in one box fits all. Yes, I would hope this does not happen, bad rescues. And for those of us who contribute to or work with rescues the one thing we can do is check them out. We must keep looking over our shoulders to make sure they do the right thing. If a rescue runs into trouble there should be a network who helps them out. And I do see that some do. But depending on rescues to pick up the mess of over breeders and just plan don't want him anymore is not something that should be made the norm. Rescues should be able to help out the animals that are truely in trouble. Rescues for horses, cats and dogs should be used as a last resort not as a place for irresponsible owners can just drop off their pets simply because they don't like that the pet did this or that. Many of those situations can be changed by getting some professional help and train or retrain the animal. As for your dangerous horses that go to slaughter that is more behavioral then nasty horse as so many pro-slaughter folks would like others to believe. And that type of situation is very rare. So you see the rescue problem can be dealt with if you just take some time and understand the pet or the situation instead of simply saying "off to the glue factory."

    And you have "called" us out by saying how quiet we are. As if you have made some statement that has shut us up. Its not that you might be right about something but we have been busy trying to save some American Wild Horses from certain death at the hands of the BLM and other departments. We are busy trying to find a true plan to help them, rather then see them go to slaughter. Slaughter is not the way an American Icon should die.

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  50. LynIL,Vicki.... and all you other Anti Slaughter people... STOP...THINK... READ... Pro Horse people do not starve and abuse their horses.. they take the time and spend the money to make sure that horse has the best care they can give it.. with the feed it needs to live healthy.
    Anit Horse people will sit in there house and feed their fat faces while their horses in their care starve and suffer and die.
    Read the numbers.. it seems that the rescues are the Anti Slaughter people.. they are the ones that LOVE to starve and kill and make a horse suffer a long and slow death... ANIT HORSE.. not there for the horse only for the ..DOLLARS... PRO SLAUGHTER.. people who take care of the horse.. feed it.. keep it safe, and healthy in hopes it will find a good home but yet might have to sale that horse for a 5th of what it cost to raise and train that horse when no one else seems to want it but the slaughter people.
    PRO HORSE....
    NOW.. do not EVER.. say we are ANTI horse.. we are not the ones that make the horse suffer a long slow death by starving them... Pull your head out of your BOX.... and look at what YOUR people are doing to the horses. and for what... THE FAST BUCK... REMOVE THE BLINDERS.... how can you say your for the horse when its YOUR people that are making the horse suffer?

    J Doe Mt.

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  51. Sorry about the miss spelled words.. i just seen it... ANTI... ANTI... But i am sure you all know what i mean.

    J Doe

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  52. Lin, that is all fine and good, but I haven't heard you address this subject as of yet, except in passing. So, here are some questions, and perhaps you can give me your thoughts on them- 1)When Rescues place their horses in the care of other Rescues, who is ultimately responsible for the well-being of those horses should the situation deterioriate to the point where the horse is being abused, neglected, and possibly to the point of death? 2)If the Rescue who has palced the horse in the other Rescue's care did so because they were at capacity, what now happens to the orse in danger? 3) Should Rescues be shuffling horses around to begin with? 4)At what point should the Equine community become concerned with Rescue abuse and neglect? 5) How often should Rescues be checked out, and by whom? 6) What is the criteria for a horse being removed-when is it bad enough? I have seen pictures of horses remaining at the rescue in question that I feel should not be there. Is there a reason they remain there? I have many more questions, but these will give us a good start at a conversation.

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  53. J Doe, you are not pro horse if you support horse slaughter. You are supporting the cruelty and abuse from the moment they entire the slaughter pipeline.

    If you are pro horse, you would be offering suggestions on how to help people keep their horses.

    Instead, all you do is rant and hide behind anonymous while doing it. You haven't offered one suggestion or any indication of wanting to discuss anything. Just incoherent rants.

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  54. All,
    I have come to this blog before to defend our side of the horse slaughter issue, to give you people the reasons we feel so strongly against horse slaughter. But then it became a name calling, opinion bashing event, so I stayed away. I recently was sent this link again and saw how you keep bashing John and Vikci. Time and time again they answer your questions and you keep bashing them. You keep saying you want to talk and hear our ideas but then we get told to "Pull your head out of your BOX" which I find VERY OFFENSIVE. So after this I will not come back here.

    People are people and they do not all do the right things. You are still putting what happened at one or two rescues as a bad rap on all rescues. There are a lot of little rescues who do it one horse at a time. Rescues are doing the best they can with the little resources they have in these hard economic times. It is only commonsense that if a resuce takes in horses and fines it can not take care of them, then they should close their doors for awhile and take another look at what they are doing. But will they do that? Will they risk personal financial trouble to keep on taking in horses? I think not. At leaset the legitimate ones won't risk it all. The Equine community should be involved in every situation that might mean abuse or neglect. Why wouldn't someone who sees a group of thin horses not stop and see what the problem is or make a call to the local authorities? I don't know about where you live but where I live we have animal control and the Department of Agriculture that look into animal welfare. My Mother is a small time dog breeder and she gets inspected every year or so by the Agriculture Dept. Does the Agri Dept. do that in your state? Do they do that for horses? I don't know I don't own a breeding farm. I have not been that involved with rescues in other states because I was taken advantage of before I learned that some rescues are not honest. So now I work with local rescues near my home. The people I have met have much love for the horses they rescue and will make sure the horses are treated well, eat daily and have medical attention. Maybe what you should do if you are so interested, is start a Rescue Watch Group. A group that might be able to network all the rescues in an area so they can all get help from one another. Give them a place to turn for advice or perhaps a central fund where money can be pooled for euthanasia or emergency food funds. This is something that has been talked about and some small groups have started. One rescue in CA has weekly euthanasia clinics where people can go if they don't have the money to put down their horse. And it seems to be working fine. But they need donations to make it happen. OK so there you go. I'm sure it's not enough for you. Many of your questions you already know the answer to. One more thing, I will fight to "my last breath" as they say to stop American horses from going to slaughter. So get ready for a fight!

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  55. Lin Il, again, that is all fine and good, but you are not addressing the problem, merely giving it a passing nod. None of what you have written addresses the problem of the Rescues abusing, neglecting, and sometimes killing horses. I gave you a specific list of questions. I'd like a specific set of answers. My reasons are purely in the best interest of each horse who may enter the Rescue of one like the one we are discussing. Or one that may leave a Rescue like the ones that felt it was allright to send a horse from their place to another Rescue-I'm still not getting that, so you may want to explain that to me when you've got time. If we can prevent even 1 horse from having to go through this hell again, then I would say we have been successful, and our work together has been something we can build on in the future. If I knew the answers to my questions, I wouldn't ask them of you. Do you know them? I don't want to fight about Slaughter today, I want to discuss RESCUES THAT ABUSE, NEGLECT, AND SOMETIMES KILL THE HORSES IN THEIR CARE. Sorry to keep bringing that up, but I think I really have to. It's just as important an issue as Slaughter, and I'm just as ready to fight about it as you are about Slaughter. Can you answer the questions I asked you?

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  56. Vicki, Do you have any thoughts on the article posted, or on the questions asked of Lin Il? I know it's easier to discuss the Pro horse issue, and whether or not you feel that some should call themselves that, but right now, this issue really seems more pressing. There are horses in terrible shape. Two have died. There are horses unaccounted for. This is not an isolated incident. This happened to horses in the care of a person who is Anti Slaughter. I feel it is an issue we need to discuss. We have plenty of discussions on Slaughter, and on who gets to call themselves Pro horse, and we can have a lot more soon. But right now, can't we address this on it's own merit? I feel it's very important, don't you?

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  57. Rita, in my previous post to RH2 where I explained why we bring up slaughter, I also listed several suggestions for way to help owners keep their horses. They not only help owners but if owners keep their horses, that would also help rescues and reduces slaughter horses. You didn’t respond so I’m not sure if you agree/disagree or haven’t read the suggestions, yet.

    You claim you want to address the issues but just had to bring up anti/pro. If someone sees animals being neglected, they should contact the authorities. It doesn’t matter if it’s a rescue or an individual. It is a crime and should be reported.

    I will try to address your questions to Lin later tonight.

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  58. In my opinion…

    1) The first rescue would be responsible. They should be checking on the horse. Even if ownership is transferred, most adoption agreements provide for the owner to take back possession if they feel the horse isn’t properly being cared for. Usually, there is a two year time limit. A good rescue will continue to check on the horses. As an example, Manes and Tails Organization never relinquishes the right to take the horse back. She free leases the horses so she always maintains ownership and has taken horses back she felt were not being properly cared for. She also doesn’t let them leave her state.

    2) Because a rescue doesn’t have room on their property, doesn’t mean they can’t take the horse back. The horse may have been placed at the other rescue for this very reason. Most rescues always have temporary foster facilities, network with other rescues and also with neighboring property.

    3) This is not commonplace and I don’t know many rescues that do that. I would have to have more info on who the rescue is and what the circumstances are. I’m sure you don’t want to post publicly for libel reasons but you can always email me through the EWA site or my site and take this off-line.

    4) The equine community should always be involved. If a crime is being committed, a rescue should be reported just as an individual owner should be reported. As I previously mentioned, many rescues take in seizures so because you see a starving horse doesn’t mean the rescue is starving the horse. If you don’t know the rescue and aren’t comfortable asking, call the authorities so they can investigate.

    5) There are no rules on this. We have several advocates that frequently check rescues in their area. Any individual should be able to go to any rescue and check them out. If they are legit, they would never turn anyone away. If they do, it is a red flag. If they are 501(c)(3)’s you can publicly check their financials on-line but as far as the property, to my knowledge, the IRS does not do any checking. The only way you could institute rules is with regulation and that would probably be as well received as breeders being regulated.

    6) It would depend on the circumstances – the horse’s weight, body condition (signs of abuse) and the property. If the property is well kept, food, water and hay are in sight, my guess is that it could be a horse that was seized because of starvation or abuse. Again, calling the authorities to make the determination (usually with a vet) is the best way to go. If they are at fault, it is better to have the authorities handle it than confronting the owner. I’ve seen situations with individual owners where only one horse was singled out but have not heard of that with rescues. That doesn’t mean it’s not happening, just that I have never come across it with a rescue.

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  59. Well I see Vicki told you how to tell if a horse in a rescue is starving..(like we did not know) and that the first rescue is responsible for the horse if it is one that came from another rescue.. but i see nothing on how to stop the fake rescues. or what should happen to them... or even how it could be stopped before it got started.

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  60. Vicki, thank you for answering the questions. This is certainly a sticky situation, with multiple rescues involved. I agree with you. The rescue placing the horse in another rescue should retain the responsibility for assuring the horse's well being. You've made good points on how to go about assessing the situation, and reporting possible abuse also. I agree that confronting the person with possession of the horses is not a good idea in most cases.
    Thanks for taking the time to give us some insight to how you feel things should be done. I am hoping this situation, and other like it will be something we can see less of.

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  61. Anonymous-I think Vicki gave us some good insights here. She's right. A lot of rescues take in horses in very poor condition. If the property has good pasture, full water tanks, and the other horses look in good health, I'd be more inclined to take more of a wait and see posture than if I found multiple horses in horrid condition, little or no food, and no water access. But I'd sure keep my eyes open.
    Stopping the Rescues that abuse and neglect horses is not going to be an easy job. The first step is going to have to be identifying them, and getting the horses out. That's the most important part. Hopefully, the next step would be prosecution. If we can demand that the law be enforced to it's fullest extent, and get the word out on those who do not care for the horses properly, hopefully they will not be able to own horses any more. One other thing we must do is stop enabling them. I know it's hard for some to admit that those they have befriended may be abusers, or have mental issues that make them unsuitable to run rescues. But if we see a problem, we must address it at the onset. If we can truly put the horses and their welfare first, we can do that. Rescues are meant to be a safe haven. Those that are should be commended. Those that are not should be shut down.

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  62. I don't recall seeing this abuse and neglect going on in the glorious 90s. You all recall the 90s, the decade being held up as a shining example of how well things run without a high number of horses being killed?

    The price of killer horses in the 90s averaged around .70 from a high of 1.00 to a low in the .50 range in the early 90s. I didn't see or hear about thin horses running around then.

    How do the abuse and neglect cases reported in a given year match up to the killer price per pound of horses (the base price in the market place for a horse)? Any one ever pull that information? I am going out a limb and guessing not.


    My tally for the year on turning around horses at a profit your anti-slaughter pink nylon bridle crew would rather see put down or rotting away in a "rescue" instead of being "exposed" to the "creulty" of the auction.....8. That's 8 horses you would have used "panhandling" to "euthanize" or "rescue". All honest useful wage earning horse citizens now. I made a little money in the process so maybe you can figure out a way to black list that too.

    To the poster using the $4000 surgery on a "rescue" colt as a reason the AEEP and AMVA sould get on the anti-slaughter band wagon....Doesn't the fact they could make "humane euthansia" and the rescue industry very lucrative yet choose the stand they do spark a couple of ideas?
    How many others just as good if not better could you save with that same $4000? That's kind of behavior I would hold up as an example of waste in the rescue system.....not brag on achieving.....The last recession we had involving horse and slaughter had us slaughtering a rough average of 200,000 head a year for almost the entire decade. We had a smaller horse population to begin with so I think the rescues better be "economizing" on which to save instead of saving one at all costs to be hereos.

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  63. RH2, we’ve seen it all. Two years ago, we had one rescue that was taking excellent care of the horses but scamming donators for medical treatments that never happened. She landed in jail. Most rescues establish an account with the vet and have donations go directly to the vet.

    Enforcing the law ... A few weeks back, someone spotted a horse tied to a fence (individual, not a rescue), in bad shape with no food or water in sight and called someone in our group. We called the sheriff and he reported back that everything was fine. Lo and behold, he was friends with the owner. We finally got a deputy to help and rescued the horse. The owner had all kinds of excuses and blamed a nursing foal for the horse’s condition – we tried to get the foal but could not.

    Animal lovers are generous to a fault and quick to help. Those are the type of people that the scammers look for. And those are the people that should be locked up and never allowed to own animals again. Then you have the Old Friends of the rescue world that are a stellar example of how it should be done.

    IMO what happens with some of the rescues, as with hoarders, is always taking on one more. Pretty soon, they have 30. If you notice, every time a hoarder is confronted, they honestly believe they are taking good care of the animals. It is a sickness and you see it with good and bad economy. I don’t know if its pride or just stupidity but it’s key to ask for help when they are in over their heads before it becomes a disaster. Short of winning the lotto, they will never dig out and of course, the animals suffer for it.

    Horse people have a sixth sense and you know when something isn’t right. Don’t be apathetic. Call someone if you suspect there is a problem. Talk to the rescue owner or call the authorities. If you talk to the owner and find out it’s a seizure, hand them $5 to help with the care. I’ll bet you’ll walk away smiling!

    It’s a thin line because you don’t want to ruin someone with false accusations.

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  64. How, in the name of anything decent, can this be right, and people defend this? Obviously there aren't enough knowledgable people "rescuing". Would these horses really be worse off going to a feed lot?
    If I changed from horses as a business to a rescue, am I a saint? I couldn't live with that term. I used to donate to CANTER until they went rescue. I quit using retirement facilities if they use the word rescue. I hear the word rescue and the first thought is scam. People have been doing rescue for generations, only with some sort of sense and no glory.
    For Vicki, if she so chooses to enlighten me:
    1) My old timers are leased (for free or I even pay for their upkeep). Either to newbies or therapy riding. I have buy back in all my sale contracts (I even offer at auctions). Trial periods of a year or more sometimes. Am I allowed to say I'm a wonderful rescuer?

    2) I've taken in peoples horses for free until they can get on their feet (or supply them with hay/feed/vet/etc). I have horses scattered across the country, too. I just wouldn't use the term "rescuer".

    3) I admit, I shuffle horses around. The show horses come home for a vacation, the broodmares go off for breeding, etc. The old ones go to a retirement home if they're in good enough shape.

    4) I am concerned now. The local SPCA couldn't tell a gelding from a steer - they wouldn't know the difference between a skinny horse and a fit horse. Who's in charge?

    5) See #4. No one who actually works with horses for a living has the time (nor patience) to deal with these people. They've started a whole new category and feed upon each other. There was a local woman here who had a horse hanging in a tree with an obvious broken leg. She paid a vet & shoer crazy amounts of money and her friends stood by exclaiming how wonderful it was she was doing this, while the vet begged to put the poor thing down . That poor horse suffered until he got an accidental overdose. Rescues have been made worse from the pain and suffering that poor race horse went through in the name of salvation.

    6) Bull. I know of two at the top of my head. First one had a few hundred acres of emtpy, overgrown pasture and a barn full of hay. They locked the horse in the barn and couldn't be bothered with the work involved to drop some hay down or run a hose to a bucket. The horse I'd sold to these "I just Loves Horsies" died in the pen at the sale (there were plenty of people ready to buy him when he went through, he just didn't make it that far). This, can't even use the B word because it's an insult to good dogs, is now a PETA officer. Second was a heated barn, indoor arena, everything I wish I had. They went bankrupt and turned the horses out in the dead of winter (below zero most of the time). No one knew until a one was hit on the road. Only one horse left alive. Did the rescuers take it? Hell no. A god-awful horse trader took him, spent a fortune for vet bills and let little kids show him. Never begged for anything for the care.
    Tell me the sense of $4000 on a horse worth $25? What about all the nice horses going through the ring that COULD BE SOMETHING? Why do the rescues only want the worst of the worst? Why do they keep the backyard breeders in business, is it so they can keep saying the problem is the backyard breeder?
    Why is it so much worse to have a horse fattened up and put in a freezer? Isn't that rescuing humans? What happens to these welfare horses? Do we end up with a whole class of generation after generation of welfare horses like we have with the human population?
    I'd just like to hear one reasonable, sane answer.

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  65. shovels, you have your mind made up that rescues are bad so why even bother asking questions? There were many sane, reasonable answers on this blog but you choose to ignore them.

    Who is defending bad rescues? Did you say that for effect? I don’t see one post on this thread where anyone is defending them.

    If you are doing what you do as a business, then you are not a rescue. A rescue will rescue and heal with the intent of adopting the horse, not selling as a business. A rescue takes a horse in need to give him a chance at a good life, in a permanent home with a caring owner. Rescues do not breed – btw, why are you? Isn’t that adding to the problem?

    If your local SPCA isn’t effective, call the main office. Call law enforcement. Call the local human society. Call a rescue.

    You are painting all rescues with a broad brush. For every bad experience you mentioned, I can give you 10 examples where a rescue made a difference. There is bad and good in every industry and business and it is no different with rescues. To bash rescues as a whole is no different than saying all breeders are irresponsible or all horse owners are irresponsible.

    No, a horse in the freezer is not rescuing humans. Horse meat is sold to the elite in foreign countries for $20-$30 per pound. The kill houses get rich and the fools sending their horses to slaughter get $300.

    I don’t understand your comment on rescues WANTING the worst of the worst. They rescue animals in need. Many are seizures because of neglect, others are rescued from the meat man and other are from owners that can no longer care for their horse. If a horse is well taken care of, why would they need rescuing?

    Are you saying all the rescues should be shut down and the horses all butchered?

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  66. I'm not near the orator you are, but then again, I'm not trying to scam the clueless out of their money to save the pretty horsies.
    I paint anyone one who uses the term "rescue" with a broad brush, yes. I still support those that get horses from the kill pen, take in starved horses, etc., but don't beg for money, charge outrageous "adoption" fees, etc. Anyone that spends $4000 on a $25 horse, well, begs for the money to do such, should not be let out of the asylum (along with anyone who enables this stupidity by giving them money).
    Your kind brought this on when a few years back ya'll preached everyone should be able to afford a horsie. Well, now they can. Dumbasses from everywhere saw a market for trail or pet horses, and they bred for that. Ya'll just can't be satisfied, or is it ya'll need to keep the crap up to keep your money coming in?
    Yes, I breed. I've cut back. The prices are down, not because the slaughter plants closed, but because the people I market to are moving their assets overseas more and more and tightening up their wallets. Good horses are still not cheap. I don't raise cheap horses so idiots can have a pretty pony to ruin and starve when they get bored with it. I do what I can to keep anything I raisse/sell out of the rescue pipeline. I'd much rather see a horse go to slaughter than be rescued by some idiot who knows nothing.
    I'd say 90% of what is calling itself a "rescue" should be shut down, yes. Probably 90% of those horses should be put out of their misery, spend some time in a feedlot eating for a change, then be steaks somewhere, yes. I hate waste and I hate abuse.
    There are plenty of horsemeat in freezers here in good ol USA. I have some in mine right now. I'll take a horse and fatten/clean it up to butcher for someone who needs the meat. I used to take them as prospects, but I don't even want to be a part of the rescue pipeline. I've actually "rescued" some from rescues. Good horses shouldn't end up with idiots.
    Anyone that can defend the crap I see all around me should spend a long time in a hot place after they die of starvation.

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  67. My Vet told me yesterday that she did a paper on slaughter a few years ago in her last year of school... she said..." it is such a waste to not slaughter unwanted horses". She also told me that her dad use to work on a ranch in Texas before he got him self a motor home, and you know how most ranches will give the hands a half a beef every year.. well this ranch gave everyone a half a horse to put in the freezer every year as well as served horse not beef for meat. Save the good horses.. find them good homes... give the rescues something good to do.. let the horses that can not be used be used else where.. and it will help cut down on the starved horses in rescues as they will not have the horses that will not lead a good life will a vet call every two weeks.

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  68. My kind has never preached everyone should be able to afford a horse. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. Horses are expensive to maintain and “we” preach know what you’re getting into before buying a horse. As with any animal, the owner is responsible for humane care in life and death. If you don’t want the responsibility of ownership and don’t want to pay for humane care, then don’t own one and don’t breed them. If everyone took responsibility, you wouldn’t need rescues and there wouldn’t be horses to feed the slaughter pipeline.

    We are in agreement. If a rescue is bad, scamming or whatever, they should not be in business but your comments on keeping up the crap to keep money coming in, is just that, crap. That is the minority of rescues.

    It is comments like that that can ruin a rescue. Take a look at Old Friends, The Exceller Fund, Manes and Tails Organization, Habitat for Horses, Last Chance Corral, Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation, Thoroughbred Charities of America, Winding Road, Gypsy Heart, Rolling Dog Ranch and Missouri Humane Society to name a few. They are top notch and do not deserve you bashing rescues as a whole.

    By all means, go after the bad ones and shut them down. I’m right there with you but don’t dismiss the great work many of our rescues have done and continue to do with the cast-offs from the irresponsible.

    Many of these rescues provide a last act of kindness to many of the horses that can’t be saved. They provide a humane death surrounded by people that care rather than being sent off to be butchered alive.

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  69. You ask, "What's worse than Slaughter? How about Equine Rescue?", as a human, I'd say reading this poorly written "opinion" piece complete with seriously screwy logic wins the "worse-if-I-have-to-choose" prize. Read the replies that support the wacky logic proposed by the author and I am in serious pain. As to what the equines think (since they aren't being quoted), I think they'd say either proposition stinks. The bottom line is that slaughter isn't better than a crappy rescue or vice versa. Basically your question is ridiculous from the equine's point of view or a sound, logical human point of view...it is not either or. Also, you used one brief sentence to acknowledge there are good equine retirement/rehab/rehoming facilities out there. Pretty cheap keyboard service to a very complicated problem with many hard working folks giving their all everday.

    I find your "opinion" lamely supporting some kind of retarded time criteria of an equine's demise immature and below short sightedness. Seriously...I don't think the equines have any concept of time, but they sure have a concept of "shitty". Slaughter and neglect via rescue or retardo/lazy/greedy/stupid/lieing piece of human garbage provide the same result...a dead horse. I would say that rescue at least doesn't send contaminated meat to humans, but there are "rescues" that adopt and/or sell that results in slaughter. So I can't even say that.

    I'll end my comments with the following summation:

    When people bring up the starving or "bad" rescue angle of equines with a wink to slaughter they are showing their real concern for equines.

    They don't like rescues because:

    (1) Rescues potentially jack up the prices of horses at auctions (competition);
    (2) Rescues provide an identification/audit trail of the irresponsible owners/intermediaries or expose them (ratting on turd humans, no matter the stage of ownership...they HATE being outted) on abuse/neglect; and,
    (3) Rescues make shitty, crappy, callous owners/buyers look bad when they (rescue/new owners) can fix, rehome or the greatest gift, humanely euth a "problem" equine.

    How you (BATR) wound up on "newsworthy" alert anything defies human logic. But when it comes to horse slaughter, human logic seems to be tragically missing. Greed and ease of disposal for a long living animal is the rule and the current law.

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  70. They don't like rescues because:

    (1) Rescues potentially jack up the prices of horses at auctions (competition);
    ---Rescues jack up the price of low end horses and enable the backyard breeder. They get way more in "adoption fees" from a worthless horse than a decent one, but if they do by chance get a decent one - heck, they can always say they don't like how it's treated and take it back. What a racket.
    (2) Rescues provide an identification/audit trail of the irresponsible owners/intermediaries or expose them (ratting on turd humans, no matter the stage of ownership...they HATE being outted) on abuse/neglect; and,
    --- And they keep on supporting the low-end breeder/owner and paying way to much for their crap, then conning some idiot into "adopting" said crap. Idiot either gets hurt (or worse) and says all the horse industry is crazy, gets offended when people laugh at their new horsie and become a rescuer themselves (oh boy, lets perpetuate backyard breeding), or actually (rarely) see they were conned and look for real horseman to learn from.
    (3) Rescues make shitty, crappy, callous owners/buyers look bad when they (rescue/new owners) can fix, rehome or the greatest gift, humanely euth a "problem" equine.
    ---I've yet to see a rescue train a horse properly. I've seen em ruin quite a few that may have been good. Once a horse learns what he can get away with, unknowledgable people shouldn't attempt to deal with the issues. Who else but someone who doesn't know horses is going to pay the ransom rescues charge for crap? Rescues seem to fall into two categories: 1) shitty, crappy owners who got offended by people laughing at their stock so they call themselves rescues or 2) Con artist who can somehow get seemingly rational in most areas of life people to fork over money to them. Maybe I'm just jealous of rescues. Quite a racket they have going.

    I did relook at Canter. They appear to have gotten rid of the "rescue" crap and went back to being what appears to be a legit organization. Maybe they realized real horseman see "rescue" and they back far away. Think I'll sending em a check now and again.

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  71. Vicki, I think anyone who's owned horses and been involved with them for any period of time has seen just about everything. Some are held to a higher standard, and those who are, need to put forth the effort to do the very best they can. I know it's difficult to see someone you support, be it friend, or Rescue do something wrong, and admit it's happened, but it's our responsibility to do so.
    I have been following this particular story, and it's so confusing and convoluted. I am so concerned for these poor horses, and wonder what their outcome will be as Winter is just a few months away.

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  72. Shovels, you ask some tough questions, and make some good points. This is not an isolated case, and that's why I wanted to discuss it. You're right about the term "Rescue", it's used for almost everything nowadays. It used to be if you went to the auction and bought a horse, you got a good deal, not you've Rescued a horse. It does make people think twice. Look at the number of Rescues opening on an almost daily basis. It seems that just about everyone wants to get in on the game. But very few want to do it on their own dime. This is something that has to be brought out and discussed, or it's not going to change.

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  73. TakeALogic Course-(And I hope You DO), Thank you for your summation of my article. The article had nothing to do with choosing. The purpose was to point out that while Rescue has been touted as a humane alternative to Slaughter, there have been an increasing number of Rescues Abusing, Neglecting, and sometimes Killing the horses in their care. I don't think that's a very good alternative, or logical, do you? The equines aren't being quoted, because those of us who own horses understand that they do not have the same thought process as humans do. We've discussed that on here from time to time. So, it would be logical that we wouldn't do any interviews with them-they wouldn't answer. You did get the point- Slaughter ISN'T better than Crappy rescue-see, that's using logic! And I must have been using a little logic in writing, since you were able to deduce that in your reading. I suppose I should explain-it was more of a Headline than a question. People often use them to give the reader an idea of what the article is going to be about. You're right, I only mentioned the good rescues, because we're not talking about the growing problem of really well run rescues in this article. We are discussing the really poorly run one-see the logic in that?
    Your paragraph talking about "retarded time criteria" etc. (how colorful by the way). If I am reading this correctly, you are stating, and quite logically in your mind that it is okay for Rescues to Abuse, Neglect, and sometimes Kill the horses in their care because- A) the horses don't really have a time concept, and B) at least they're not sending contaminated meat to people. Well, thank heavens one of us is thinking logically here! This article wasn't about "liking" Rescues. It was about a Rescue that did something terribly wrong. And about others that are doing the same thing. Many of us who own horses are concerned when others who claim to care about horses do things that harm them. So we talk about those things to see if we can do something about it. Does that sound logical to you?

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  74. Sorry, but shovels did NOT do a very good job rebutting my points. That you think he/she did supports my position that you and your supporters are not very good at critical thinking. And, NO...what you wrote to kick this ridiculous debate off was NOT clear; ergo my point that it is painful to read your posts. But again, this will be lost on you and your cheerleading squad. And frankly "manager", it is the freaking economy that is devastating the non-profit sector around the world; not someone having or not having quick, convenient, unfettered access to horse slaughter plants.

    The majority of people that bitch and relish the failures of some "rescues" frequently support some form of horse slaughter. That's what I meant by "like", not that you will understand the premise. Debating with you people is like peeing into the wind. As to, "Many of us who own horses are concerned when others who claim to care about horses do things that harm them. So we talk about those things to see if we can do something about it. Does that sound logical to you?" You can't be serious. There are far more problems with bad, ignorant owners and poor law enforcement than bad rescues. Difference? The former is more dispersed, widespread and low on the radar screen; the latter is easily concentrated, visible and active in smaller geographical areas. There are people that do things "terribly wrong" all day long to equines, from over breeding, not feeding, training or any of the other required actions necessary to maintain a healthy, happy equine. What's with the narrow focus in this blog post? And don't tell me it's part of the problem. Your level of effort and your pep squad's plus your know-it-all tone with a "slaughter is necessary" position discredits that contention. In other words, your proslaughter rhetoric that a quick death is a better death than a slow death is just as much bullshit as your "concern" for the equines...and your plan is? See if you can put one together that doesn't include slaughter! And you spend WAaaayyyY too much time critiquing people that don't hold the slaughter is necessary
    position. Once again, says it all. It's part of the Sue Wallis "Mein Kempf" slaughter handbook. I'll continue to spend my time working on legislation and enforcement on food safety, humane disposal and welfare issues instead of throwing my time away debating with individuals that just don't get it and NEVER will. I'll just legislate you and your crowd away into obscurity. Happy Trails.

    p.s. You really think you're witty, clever and relevant? Update- you are not. If you don't believe me, read your blog and posts of your supporters. And I have taken and passed courses in logic and law, obviously, based on your logic and dialogue skills I'd guess you haven't. You're too busy taking care of other people's property and pointing ignorant fingers.

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  75. TakeaLogicCourse: Your to funny..." shovels did NOT do a very good job rebutting my points " you need "POINTS" to rebuttal. First without horse slaughter the death of a horse is just waste, its death was for nothing. Rescues are to help the horses that many back yard horse owners fail to care for. But most rescues fail at that. Horders are people that even thou they might have a big heart do not have much for smarts and think that even though the horse is starving and dieing in there care the horse is better off in the long run. NOT SMART... This blog is to try and find ways to stop the horders and figure out how to tell if the rescue is just that.. a rescue and not another horder. NOW.. if you do not like our little blog then GO AWAY.. no one will get mad..

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  76. Hey Logic! We have something in common. I, too, took the matchbook lawyer coarse. Also took Motorcylce Mech. and am looking at Small Engine Repair. What else have you tried?
    I also got real degrees in the sciences. Logic there was more logical than lawyer logic. I think you're stretching for "debate". I won't debate an unarmed opponent. Actually, I don't debate. Debating means getting your point across rather you believe in it or not. I say what I mean and mean what I say.

    >You're too busy taking care of other people's property and pointing ignorant fingers.<
    Totally illogical, makes no sense. Fail. Try again. I'm sure Vicki can give you some pointers.

    You happen to be on a board of people who actually own, do something with, know horses - not some I loves horsies and dead race horses talk to me board. If you have some logical point, please make it. Why are the number of rescues needing rescuing increasing? Why aren't knowledgable horse people involved in rescues? Why only save the crap and support your local backyard breeder? Can you tell me how "rescues" are stopping backyard breeding, starving horses, making useful horses? Do you believe all horses should do nothing but sit in peoples back yards and be big dogs? Have you ever experienced the thrill of riding a good, trained horse? Have you ever tried to learn something about horses other than the anti-slaughter propaganda? What should be done with the overflow of horses needing rescuing? Do you not see a problem with rescues needing rescuing? I have so many questions for your kind, but no one will give a real answer. Please try.

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  77. Shovels, I think you did a pretty good job:)
    TakeaLogicCourse (and you REALLY need to take it again). If I can understand what your point is, and I admit, I'm struggling, all you've gotten out of this is that we're pushing Slaughter, (I don't, by the way), and you STILL contend it's okay to slowly torture a horse to death, as long as it's NOT Slaughter. If you really think anyone on here "relishes" what we've seen in the pictures, and read about concerning this recues, you are mistaken. But, I suppose that makes your argument logical to you. Black and white is easier for some, and it seems to work for you. The "narrow focus" of this blog post was the topic we were discussing. I don't know how logical this will sound to you, but if I wrote an article on all of the terrible things people do all day, I'd still be writing, and nothing would ever get posted. Plus, it would be awfully difficult for anyone to get the point of what I was writing. Perhaps while you were taking one of your Logis courses, you should have slipped in an English Composition course. There, you would have learned all about choosing a topic, forming sentences, and completing papers, article, and stories. It's actually pretty logical, so I think you may have enjoyed it, being the Logical person you are. I do hope you go on to work on legislation, enforcement of food safety, humane disposal, and welfare issues. I think we'll all be just a little safer in our world. I'm not sure who's property you think I'm taking care of, you kind of lost me at the end there. But you caught me, I did not take those courses in Logic and Law that you did, and after reading what you've written, I'd say it was money well saved.

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  78. Shovels, Jane Doe, I am sure glad to see you here. It saves me a lot time typing and arguing. I can keep my narrow focus aimed correctly that way. I don't have to be concerned with details and rebuttals.

    RH 2 you are such a diplomat even when you're pissed. Thanks for hanging in there.

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  79. RH1, I'm trying, but believe me, it's tough. There HAVE been some good points made by both "sides"....(aren't you all sick of the sides yet?), meanwhile, the story rolls on, and gets worse. What can be worse, you ask. Now, 7 horses are being put up for "bail". And this makes me completely ill. The "bail" money will go back to the Rescue so they can continue to provide care for the rest of the horses. That's right-THEY STILL HAVE THE HORSES! With the exception of 13 that were puled by another Rescue, the horses still remain, and the owner is refusing adoptive home offers. That's right-she wants cash! I think we really need to keep a sharp focus on this story. How it is being handled, and what becomes of the horses is really going to be important, I think.

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  80. Wow. I mean WOW. How? Really, just HOW THE HELL CAN THEY EVEN THINK ANY OF THIS IS RIGHT? Isn't there any common sense or common decency left in the world? Has common stupidity become the PC of the day? This is SICK.
    I can see local authorities not being able to take any more (or have the knowledge of what to do with them), so why don't they just shoot em and give what meat there may be to the local food banks? Hell, I'd donate for feed if they were to go to a feedlot and then be given to a food bank.
    Sorry, I get off track of the rescue in question because this is not uncommon - I have this all around me. It ain't getting any better.
    Decent rescues are few and far between (I have yet to actually see one). Of the ones Vicki listed, I'd call 1, maybe (stretching) 2 decent, possibly a 3rd as maybe being able to learn - the rest are lumped in my idea of rescues and will probably need rescuing themselves shortly.
    I know this topic is important, but it's starting to turn my stomach. Can you toss in some Saturday humor? Some of these posts are humorous, but only in a sick, sad way.

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  81. I wish I knew something funny to say, but if you're sick now, this isn't going to help you any. The Rescue that has done this to the horses is now offering some of them FOR SALE!!!!! The "bail" on them will be used to help her keep the other ones. I need to go buy a new box of Alka Seltzer, I just killed off the one I have.
    BUT- I have a plan! I think we need to take this article, and send it to the State Reps of Nebraska. Give them the updates we now have. Let them know the Authorities have done NOTHING TO DATE about this! Then, take that same letter, and send it to YOUR State Rep. I know no one wants to link this to the Slaughter issue-I wasn't going to, either. But once the Rescue decided to offer some of the horses for sale, how is this any different? She plans to keep the others with NO PLAN of any rehabilitation that I've heard of. So, with Winter coming, here we go again. If those who are going to support HR503 want to discuss the inhumanity of Slaughter, then they'd better be prepared to talk about the inhumanity of the option we were offered to it. I was told that it was stated on the ABR board that the Pro Horse side is looking long and hard at how this is being handled. Well, shouldn't we? Isn't this also an Equine Welfare issue? I can't believe this is STILL dragging on with no resolution in sight! And one of the Rescues continues to support this one, and continues to leave their horses there, as far as I know.
    This Rescue may even have played a part in convincing the Authorities that the situation was manageable. I pray that this is not true. But since she is still supporting the one who has Abused, Neglected, and Killed some of the horses, maybe it's not such a stretch.
    Sorry, I just can't get in a humorous mood with this crap going on:(

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  82. http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/story/2212036.html
    A nice story for a Sunday. About a decent person who isn't some sort of self-rightous rescuer, but a real horseman.

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  83. shovels, I don’t mean to be rude but perhaps you should take a remedial reading course. You said --HOW THE HELL CAN THEY EVEN THINK ANY OF THIS IS RIGHT?-- Again, I ask you, where did anyone say mistreating a horse or misrepresenting what a rescue does is right?

    All of you seem to be focusing on one rescue and want to state this rescue is representative of all rescues. That is definitely not the case and since no matter what anyone posts to the contrary, you keep taking it back to one bad rescue.

    There are many excellent rescues that are doing great work and giving horses a second chance at a good life. The bigger outrage should be at how and why the horses ended up at a rescue - the owners of those horses….

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  84. Very nice, Vicki. Now you try reading. I went to the sight in the blog - they're a mess. If you'd bother to have read any, you would have seen that most of what I said has been personal experience with the rescues in my area. This rescue is just typical of any rescue I've seen/heard of. I've even gone through your list and commented - guess you didn't bother to read that, either.
    This rescue does not represent ALL rescues, just MOST.
    Maybe you should try reading ahead to other blog entries. Wouldn't work for you, though - not enough drama and written by those who are actually there.
    The bigger outrage should be the perpetuation of backyard breeding, starving, bad husbandry, lack of knowledge, etc. that MOST rescues enable.

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  85. Vicki, I wrote the article, and I am not in any way saying this Rescue is an example of all Rescues. But we can't look the other way when these things continue to happen. I wrote this because it really bothered me that THREE Rescues are involved in this mess. While one of the Rescues has chosen to remove the horses in the accused Rescue's care (and has suffered 2 fatalities to date. They are also missing a horse still), one chose to leave their horses there, and further stated that none of the horses there were starving or dying. The story continues to get worse day by day, and the horses, unfortunately remain at the Rescue. The rescue supporting the accused Rescue has now decided to walk away from the whole thing. She does not like the comments made, or the feelings about how she's handled this. Where does that leave the horses? Last I had read, the accused Rescue was offering some horses up for sale in order to keep others. Those offering homes to these horses feel that this is Blackmail. I tend to agree. How does someone who abuses, neglects, and even kills horses in their care, turn around and refuse home offers because they want to make money? We have been told that Rescue is the Humane alternative to Slaughter. We are seeing more cases in which that is not true. We are being told that Legislation is the answer. Yet this small number of horses cannot be saved as the investigation lingers on. Can you imagine anyone enforcing Legislation dealing with numbers in the thousands? You want to place the blame on the original owners of the horses, and we can't do that here. This is the alternative you have offered up as the more humane solution for those who for WHATEVER reason, can no longer care for their horses. You can't bring up the economy at one point as a viable reason for the excess equine population, and then lay blame when a Rescue that should be held to a higher standard fails to do the right thing. We can all agree that there are people who just don't care, and no matter what the outcome of this issue is, they will continue to do as they have done. But for these Rescues, who take these horses in and promise them a better life, we can offer no excuse, nothing to fall back on. If that is not the BIGGEST outrage, then we have truly failed. If these Rescues cannot be held up as the examples we have been told they are, then we need to find out what has gone wrong. I have my opinions. As this continues to play out, there are more Rescues that continue to fail. This is not an isolated incident.

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  86. That’s interesting shovels because by the time you posted here, ICERS was taken down. I still don’t know what rescue this is referencing. And no, this is NOT representative of MOST rescues. It is representative of the minority.

    That is the outrage I spoke of but don’t blame it on the rescues. Many of the horses they have, were pulled from the slaughter pipeline. Slaughter not only enables irresponsibility by providing a dumping ground but then rewards the owner monetarily. But we already know that majority of horses going to slaughter are not those that are being neglected. Their owners just neglect them until they die or are seized. How is that the fault of a rescue? The rescues don’t get involved until after the crime has been committed. Owners have been neglecting animals since man has owned them. They do it with or without rescues or slaughter.

    I don’t understand your comment on me wanting drama. Quite the opposite. Read your posts and read mine and tell me who is the drama queen.

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  87. RH2, it doesn’t matter who wrote the article. The title is saying that rescue (not A particular rescue) is worse than slaughter. That is misleading and is simply not true. I’m sure it was meant to grab readers but it does a genuine disservice to reputable, good rescues - and there are far more of them than the crooks. Yes, rescues continue to fail as does every other business and charity in America because of the economy. Statistics also have shown that neglect also increases with the increase of unemployment and decline in the economy.

    Nobody said it was an isolated incident and there probably will be more but that doesn’t make it the norm and make the good rescues the bad guys. Yes. it is an outrage and yes, they should be called on it and shut down. What is so different with rescues than any other charitable organization that goes bad? Where are the horse organizations in all this? Why aren’t they supporting rescues? Oh, I forgot, they’re spending all their money on lobbyists and PAC donations trying to reopen the slaughter plants instead of trying to help the owners and the rescues that take in the horses they cast off….

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  88. Vicki Why is it any breed association's problem to dictate or enforce the rescue laws? What happened to all that personal accountability by the owners which in the cases being discussed happen to be rescues?

    I don't think you have the experience or the knowledge to offer an opinoin about what any breed registry is doing with their money. It's obvious from your comments the only horse related topic you have studied are slaughter statistics and rescues p.r.

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  89. Anonymous, I work with rescues on almost a daily basis. We investigate, call authorities, fundraise, arrange transport, arrange vet care and locate facilities/rescues to take horses that are seized. I might not be an expert because I don’t run a rescue but I have been involved in everything they do. I also visit the rescues where I have sponsored horses. That’s a bit more than PR.

    You must not have read my posts. I have said in just about every post that if a rescue is not doing what they should be, shut them down and prosecute accordingly just as you would the owner of a horse. But where is the true owner accountability? If the owners took responsibility for a horse they chose to own or breed, they wouldn’t end up in rescues or on slaughter trucks.

    As far as the breed registries, it isn’t their responsibility to enforce laws. I never said that. What I said was where are they? They are promoting breeding. While I understand the need for registration fees to continue the organization, I see nothing in the way of helping owners keep the horses resulting from promoting overbreeding. No programs, no supporting rescues, no hay funds, no retirement funds and no help with expenses. The TB industry has stepped up, why not the other breed organizations. As an example, QHs lead the trucks rolling to slaughter. Why not take a small percentage of registration fees to help keep them off the trucks or establish programs that help owners keep their horses?

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  90. Vicki-The title was written in sincerity. I think that allowing horses to slowly starve to death is worse that Slaughter. I do. I do not believe that it is misleading. No matter what the intention, the economy, the problems that led to it, that's what I think. Horses are dying, and dying slowly. If Rescues are indeed businesses, let's get them set up as such. I'm sick and tired of those that are railing against it. And guess which ones they are? You can't tell me that those who's BOD's consist of family members, and who's first concern is to figure out how to best get in those donations without putting any of their own cash in are businesses. Those who continually state that money is not the first concern, the horses are, and the needed finances will come from "somewhere", are not busineses. And WE have been told time and time again, that these Rescues are run solely out of the love of human for horse, not as a greed based money making venture. So no, I don't think we can talk business here. Once a horse is sold, "bailed" "ransomed", given away, the person in possession of it is the owner. I believe in living in the present. I'm tired of hearing about the "slaughter Pipeline". It can just as easily be the "re-homing Pipeline", or as we have seen recently the "Rescue-Abuse-Neglect-Death Pipeline". The Rescue in possession of these horses is the owner, and failed the horses miserably. The Rescue in possesion of these horses continues to do so. You ask what is being done. On a personal level, I have written to and called every single person and department I can think of to try to get some resolution for these anmals. The Rescue in Question has REFUSED home offers from two very reputable Rescues. The Rescue in question has offered to SELL horses in order to retain some of those she has abused. Reminds me of 3 Strikes. What more can we do right now, Vicki? Should we feel just a little more pity for these Rescues as they close their doors to offers of help and continue to abuse the horses? I'm surprised at your statements about what has been done. I thought we had made some headway, I guess I was wrong. When will you see the damage some of your statements make? There are a lot of people working very hard on this, and trying to do what is BEST FOR THE HORSES. And guess what? We are from BOTH "SIDES" of the issue. Some of us can actually get the job done and have an understanding of how these situations impact the issies at hand without setting up a defense. We can discuss it without putting roadblock up. We're the ones who will ultimately help the horses. I wonder, when it's all said and done, where you will be?

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  91. "As an example, QHs lead the trucks rolling to slaughter. "
    What a surprise Vicki would use the QH as an example. Vicki do you think registration papers are checked at the door of the slaughter plant? Did you know that any stock horse or horse that looks like a stock horse is called a quarter horse in the "slaughter pipeline". Not only that but the registries are NOT responsible for what owners do. They do what they can to educate, they regulate where they legally can. Why would they want to support rescues when so many rescues are a scam and are mismanaging their "businesses" and neglecting their horses.
    If I were a horse trailer manufacturer would that make me responsible for horses being hauled to slaughter? If I were an equine feed company would that make me responsible for owners (whether they be rescue organizations or individuals) who starve their horses or responsible for the horses they starved? If I am involved in selling any equine related product does that mean I have to be responsible for the faults of an entire industry? Why would the AQHA be expected to take responsibility for others horses or their actions concerning horses? Again the AQHA bull crap you anti slaughter people spin is ridiculous and shows a complete lack of knowledge in the equine industry, the slaughter industry, and business in general.
    There are a few things that I do blame on the AQHA and it's members. We will likely cover those things in later posts, however the number of rescues neglecting horses and the number of horses going to slaughter are not among those things. I'm sure since it will not be slaughter related your google alert won't work and you will miss yet another oportunity to educate yourself.

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  92. Ranch Manager, I find it curious that you guys have been ragging about us focusing on slaughter and then you chose to focus on slaughter and harp on that but ignored everything on the rescues.

    If you have an issue with the stats that say QHs are the leading breed going to slaughter, take it up with the USDA, not me. I don’t make up the stats.

    Sorry, but if an organization is promoting breeding and registering over 135,000 foals every year, then they shouldn’t be whining about unwanted horses or spending hundreds of thousands of dollars lobbying for slaughter. $60k through July this year. Just think of the hay, vet services and feed that would cover. They are the biggest contributor to the problem and only perpetuate the excess horses. You know the slogan, keep the best and slaughter the rest.

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  93. We are talking about santuaries and rescues, just three blogs ahead Vick turn the page please we would like to hear your opinon on the santuaries who are breeding both mustang and AQHA foals.

    Incidently per an article per the Western Horseman August issue the AQHA spends more on equine research than any other breed association. Oh that's right you wouldn't be reading Western Horsemen it's for people who actually ride and own horses.

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  94. RH1, very logical snide comments. So what you are saying is that if I am not a murderer, I wouldn’t read a book on murder. If I am not in the mob, I wouldn’t read a book on the Mafia. If I didn’t serve in a war, I would not read history books. What the heck kind of argument is that?

    You don’t have to experience something to be well versed on a subject. With your logic, if you don’t run a rescue, then you shouldn’t be writing about what they are doing right or wrong. Or does owning a horse make you an expert on all things equine?

    I did post about rescues and sanctuaries and Ranch Manager chose to ignore those posts and talk about slaughter.

    Please post a link to the blog on the sanctuaries that are breeding Mustangs. BTW-speaking of Mustangs, make sure you catch the George Knapp report that is airing on October 10 @ 9p NV time. Quite a few of the folks I work with are in the report.

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  95. Call me narrow minded but I find it ironic you don't care enough to own one or even ride. Owning a horse and giving it a lasting career as a solid citizen is one of the surest ways to "save" it. You spend all your time "saving" but expect everyone else to do the actual leg work of caring for even one. Do as I say not as I do. Turning around your logic, does studying John Holland's or any statistics make you an expert on the AQHA or anything else to do with the actual horse industry?

    So I take that as you don't read Western Horseman, Horse & Rider, Equus, The Quarter Horse Journal, or any other equine trade magazine?

    You are well connected, educated, and obviously smarter than I so if you can't find this blog's other subjects I am really sure I can't find George Knapp.

    NV time??? is that something like Mountain Time or is it Pacific Time. I really am behind I was not aware we had an NV time zone. Besides,I don't spend much time watching any tv but if I did I would spend it watching America's Horse. I am pretty sure I will learn more from watching the likes of Bob Aviala than anyone you work with.

    I did have a chance to speak with Chase Adams and several others yesterday in a conference call. I found that quite informative. It puts a little clearer light on several of your subjects or I can drop names too.

    Here is a link you might find interesting. http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf Read the whole thing, not just the parts you want, in other words don't treat it like this blog or the AQHA. As for the breeding of mustangs blog here...find it yourself. You got here for the market opinion and 94 posts on this, just scroll all the way to the top of the page, look to the left (looking right and left are valuable life skills Vicki) read down the archived dates, and click the three dates following this one, those would be 9/27, and the Oct ones.....how hard is that?

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  96. RH1, if you want to have a discussion, please stop with the snide comments. I do not owe you or anyone an explanation on why I do not currently own a horse and it has no relevance to a discussion on rescues. I have stated over and over again that I sponsor horses so I am contributing to their care. John owns 12 horses so according to your logic, that makes him an expert on all things equine. Instead of writing a snide paragraph on where to find the link, wouldn’t it have been just as easy to paste a link into your post? I’m in the Midwest and we say Chicago time, NY time, CA time. If you don’t know what NV time is, it is Pacific. I said NV because it a local tv station, KLAS-TV channel 8, that probably doesn’t broadcast very far out of NV. I don’t know what their broadcast range is.

    I already have the AVMA paper and I also have the VEW paper. Have you read that? The AAEP has now said, and I quote “3. Penetrating captive bolt to the head of a calm, sedated or humanely restrained horse by a professional trained in this method.” The bolt is not administered by professionals, the horses are not humanely restrained, calm or sedated. The AQHAs own lobbyist, Conrad Burns has gone on record stating that the bolt is not humane for horses. So what is your point? If the AAEP has changed their tune, you should expect to see new clarifying guidelines from the AVMA. The guidelines were written by vets for vets and are being misused by those that support slaughter. Ask the AVMA and they’ll tell you same thing.

    John and I have had several discussions with Chase and although we don’t agree on much, I do respect him. He had John on his radio program and has been very cordial to us. If you are trying to get me to say something bad about him, you can forget it. I enjoyed my conversations with him and I’m sure we will have more.

    So do you want to discuss the rescues or keep going off topic?

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